Saville report

[elginCity]

I agree with the view that those who wish to judge, should do so mindful of the times and context.

Prior to Bloody Sunday, many soldiers had been killed in Londonderry by a covert enemy dressed in civilian clothing. There was no battlefield, no uniform.

As ******** wrote, the Paras are a very well-trained killing machine, and to issue live ammunition, with poor briefing, and then throw them in amongst a rioting mob all dressed and behaving like the enemy, was a stupid decision in hindsight.

Although proud to be born in a country who's government holds its hands up and publically apologises for fatal mistakes of the past, to witness certain people occupying the moral high ground talking of truth, justice and the murder of innocents, doesn't sit quite so easily.

Many Nationalists took up arms as a result of Bloody Sunday, many that probably wouldn't have done so otherwise, we'll never know for sure. Many other innocent civilians have most probably been slaughtered as a direct consequence, in retribution for Bloody Sunday.

To keep it in context, all of the victims killed in London, Birmingham, Brighton, Aldershot and Guildford were also "unarmed, they posed no threat and were completely innocent".

 

[Greyhound]

A well-expressed summary, elginCity. Especially paragraph four.

 

[Jason H]

I agree with the view that those who wish to judge, should do so mindful of the times and context.

Prior to Bloody Sunday, many soldiers had been killed in Londonderry by a covert enemy dressed in civilian clothing. There was no battlefield, no uniform.

As ******** wrote, the Paras are a very well-trained killing machine, and to issue live ammunition, with poor briefing, and then throw them in amongst a rioting mob all dressed and behaving like the enemy, was a stupid decision in hindsight.

Although proud to be born in a country who's government holds its hands up and publically apologises for fatal mistakes of the past, to witness certain people occupying the moral high ground talking of truth, justice and the murder of innocents, doesn't sit quite so easily.

Many Nationalists took up arms as a result of Bloody Sunday, many that probably wouldn't have done so otherwise, we'll never know for sure. Many other innocent civilians have most probably been slaughtered as a direct consequence, in retribution for Bloody Sunday.

To keep it in context, all of the victims killed in London, Birmingham, Brighton, Aldershot and Guildford were also "unarmed, they posed no threat and were completely innocent".

Yep, I'd agree with that.

To be perfectly honest, I tend to keep out of debates where Northern Ireland is concerned, mainly out of ignorance.

 

[Bittners a Legend]

I agree with the view that those who wish to judge, should do so mindful of the times and context.

Prior to Bloody Sunday, many soldiers had been killed in Londonderry by a covert enemy dressed in civilian clothing. There was no battlefield, no uniform.

As ******** wrote, the Paras are a very well-trained killing machine, and to issue live ammunition, with poor briefing, and then throw them in amongst a rioting mob all dressed and behaving like the enemy, was a stupid decision in hindsight.

Although proud to be born in a country who's government holds its hands up and publically apologises for fatal mistakes of the past, to witness certain people occupying the moral high ground talking of truth, justice and the murder of innocents, doesn't sit quite so easily.

Many Nationalists took up arms as a result of Bloody Sunday, many that probably wouldn't have done so otherwise, we'll never know for sure. Many other innocent civilians have most probably been slaughtered as a direct consequence, in retribution for Bloody Sunday.

To keep it in context, all of the victims killed in London, Birmingham, Brighton, Aldershot and Guildford were also "unarmed, they posed no threat and were completely innocent".

I'd disagree that all those marching were a "rioting mob" ... that simply isn't true.

Secondly para's being trained to kill doesn't mean anything. They aren't as far as I'm aware trained to shoot their own nations un-armed civilians.

I'm well aware of the context and the times but for 38 years families had to live with not only the death of loved ones but a cover-up that spread lies about those loved ones.

This isn't about detracting from any other equally shameful deaths committed either by the IRA or anybody else; but finally acknowledging the truth. It is a very important moment and attempts to dismiss it are in my opinion very weak and essentially lack any understanding (and of course how could any of us understand) the emotions and pain of the families of the victims.

 

[Strongbow]

I'd disagree that all those marching were a "rioting mob" ... that simply isn't true.

As far as I can see elgin doesn't say that "all those marching" were rioters. The report clearly states that amongst peaceful marchers there were rioters. There were also armed enemies of the state in the area, including one of the dead.

 

[Bittners a Legend]

As far as I can see elgin doesn't say that "all those marching" were rioters. The report clearly states that amongst peaceful marchers there were rioters. There were also armed enemies of the state in the area, including one of the dead.

He wrote "throw them in amongst a rioting mob all dressed and behaving like the enemy" ... the key word there being "all". However, I probably misread what I thought Elgin was implying so I see your point.

The "armed enemy of the state" you mention was a 17 year old kid running from those shooting indiscriminantly. That's not an attempt to justify anybody armed but an important point to consider.

Most of the para's deployed that day didn't shoot and murder innocent people. The suggestion that we should have expected such murder, or that it could be justified because they are "trained to kill" seems both wrong morally and factually.

 

[Poultice]

And, lest you forget, it was politics that ultimately succeeded in securing peace in Northern Ireland - just as it is in every other conflict.

No Jambo, "Peace was bought with money", there is no political solution and as the money either runs out or doesn't reach the right pockets then the level of conflict will continue to rise.

I have got some very good friends from Norn, some of them a bit on the edge, and they all think the level of "illegal" activity, which in the end breeds violence, is very much on the rise.

Just imagine this country if the EDL and some of the Muslim extremists had free access to AK47s and IED technology.

No, Tony Blair bought respite and an election with public money, nothing more.

 

[Poultice]

He wrote "throw them in amongst a rioting mob all dressed and behaving like the enemy" ... the key word there being "all". However, I probably misread what I thought Elgin was implying so I see your point.

The "armed enemy of the state" you mention was a 17 year old kid running from those shooting indiscriminantly. That's not an attempt to justify anybody armed but an important point to consider.

Most of the para's deployed that day didn't shoot and murder innocent people. The suggestion that we should have expected such murder, or that it could be justified because they are "trained to kill" seems both wrong morally and factually.

Stupid or simply naive ?

 

[StroudGrecian]

There are two atrocities to consider here, first the events of Bloody Sunday, and second the subsequent cover up. I can understand the argument for considering the events of that day in their proper context, but there is simply no excuse for 38 years of lies and blaming the dead. If those responsible are not tried for murder, they must be tried for perjury.

 

[lancsgrecian]

Good to see this beinig debated here.

This report does not detract one jot from the terrible death toll at the hands of terrorist groups on both sides. Its sole purpose is to assess how the agents of the state (those apparently controlled by a democratically elected government) could end up killing 13 citizens who posed no immediate threat to life or limb; and then lied about it afterward.

The troops were there under command of a mid-ranking officer, who disobeyed commands from further up the chain. Each soldier, as a highly trained and cold-eyed armed marksman, is responsible for accounting for each round discharged.

If there was nothing to hide, why the lies?

[I[/I]