Politics Today

[tavyred]

Must admit, Tavy, I can't fathom the Blue collar patriot these days. Is he a British nationalist (aka unionist), or an English nationalist ?

Good question
Its was often said that an English persons nationalism/patriotism was expressed through the prism of his/her Britishness. I do sense however that an England specific nationalism/patriotism has been fermenting for a few years now, hastened recently by the fact that devolution for everyone else other than the English is beginning to show up some quite glaring inequities between the four nations of the Union. A bit like England footy fans binning the Union flag for the flag of St George, and people more generally celebrating St George's Day, English consciousness is rising and has been for a decade or more.
BJ's 'levelling up' agenda is designed to address the legitimate English grievance as regards funding, but unless he stops over funding the Celts the grievance will fester and grow.The day after BJ announced his plans for extra spending in England, Bunter Blackford of the SNP was reminding him that for every bit of extra spending announced for England, thanks to the Barnett consequential's Scotland gets more money too. Lest we forget that Scots get 17%per capita more in public spending than the UK average and the English gets -3%. The continuance of the Barnett formula just perpetuates that gap and no end of levelling agendas changes that.
Ironically England will end the Union IMO, not the terminally chippy Scots.

 

[IndoMike]

Good question
Its was often said that an English persons nationalism/patriotism was expressed through the prism of his/her Britishness. I do sense however that an England specific nationalism/patriotism has been fermenting for a few years now, hastened recently by the fact that devolution for everyone else other than the English is beginning to show up some quite glaring inequities between the four nations of the Union. A bit like England footy fans binning the Union flag for the flag of St George, and people more generally celebrating St George's Day, English consciousness is rising and has been for a decade or more.
BJ's 'levelling up' agenda is designed to address the legitimate English grievance as regards funding, but unless he stops over funding the Celts the grievance will fester and grow.The day after BJ announced his plans for extra spending in England, Bunter Blackford of the SNP was reminding him that for every bit of extra spending announced for England, thanks to the Barnett consequential's Scotland gets more money too. Lest we forget that Scots get 17%per capita more in public spending than the UK average and the English gets -3%. The continuance of the Barnett formula just perpetuates that gap and no end of levelling agendas changes that.
Ironically England will end the Union IMO, not the terminally chippy Scots.

I don't really grasp your use of the forward slash in nationalism/patriotism. They are not the same thing and cannot be grouped together.

I was hoping that "levelling up" referred to improving the lot of the have - littles, not specifically the comparative budget per person in each of the four home countries.

However, regarding the fairness of how the budget is divided up, I assume this is done to keep the home nations onside, unless there is some other reason why they should get more per person - if that is true. And if it is true, I agree and don't see why Scotland, Wales and N Ireland should receive more per person

 

[Stuffy]

Oh dear Stuffy you really should look at the links you put on here, I think this bloke is called Jeff Taylor, He is one of these people that vlog with a Union Jack behind him spouting repeated things said by the Daily Express online, Just look back at some of his work, I have even replied to some of it, It is woeful nonsense, He is no expert and relies on sites that just have the same narrative as himself. Since December he has tried to "Scare" people in saying that remainers were trying to thwart Brexit, The EU were in cahoots with opposition parties to reverse things which were not true because, As i told him, The numbers in the HoC's make it that Brexit will happen and guess what? I was right and then he tries to say it was people like him that got Brexit through because his website had made it public how the nasty EU and remainers were conspiring to make us stay. Now thats done, He's on about the break up of the EU, Fisheries scare stories and the EU army thing. The man is a loon and like others who sit in a garage and make videos are laughable.

With the greatest respect DB, I've been saying pretty much the same thing for the past three years regarding Franco/German intentions regarding the supply of armaments to the rest of the EU. I would dearly love you and Arthur (if he doesn't find it toooo tedious) to check some of my previous posts concerning this subject simply to confirm my consistency. I so wish Al was around because we discussed this at length not so long ago. Also, you must remember that the French, Germans and the EU are very, very accommodating bedfellows

This is not a Grauniad link.

EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules

The World Trade Organisation rules the EU paid illegal aid to the European planemaker, paving the way for trade tariffs.

www.bbc.co.uk

Finally, please return to the Jeff Taylor link and towards it's end you will note he is simply 'quoting' this respected British General..

This is not a Grauniad link.

Jonathon Riley (British Army officer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DB9]

With the greatest respect DB, I've been saying pretty much the same thing for the past three years regarding Franco/German intentions regarding the supply of armaments to the rest of the EU. I would dearly love you and Arthur (if he doesn't find it toooo tedious) to check some of my previous posts concerning this subject simply to confirm my consistency. I so wish Al was around because we discussed this at length not so long ago. Also, you must remember that the French, Germans and the EU are very, very accommodating bedfellows

This is not a Grauniad link.

EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules

The World Trade Organisation rules the EU paid illegal aid to the European planemaker, paving the way for trade tariffs.

www.bbc.co.uk

Finally, please return to the Jeff Taylor link and towards it's end you will note he is simply 'quoting' this respected British General..

This is not a Grauniad link.

Jonathon Riley (British Army officer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Stuffy, For me i respect your view that you think an EU Army is coming but for me there are two things, I don't think it will happen, Even at the height of the Cold War we had Nato and the Soviets had The Warsaw Pact, All the nations had their own Armies but under the umbrella of an organisation which is a much more likely scenario if those EU countries want out of Nato and my second view is, If it happens so what, We're not in the EU now and have nothing to do with their decision making, So let them get on with it.

If EU countries have to buy weapons from other EU countries then that's up to them, They signed up for it so if they end up being the rules, Again nothing to do with us, As we are told by our Government there is a whole world to sell killing machines to so that's what we'll try to do. Again so what if the French, Germans and the EU are bedfellows, It was our decision to leave and we will have to compete with them when trying to sell all sorts of stuff, including arms sales, We have to make sure ours are better quaility and better value than the EU, That's captialism isn't it? Or is it not the right sort of capitalism you want or expected? If the WTO says the EU is ilegally subsidising Airbus then surely we're benefitting from that as we have lots of people employed by Airbus in the UK?

I'm have no interest in Jeff Taylor, He may quote a retired General but have you thought things have moved on since 2009 when the General retired? Jeff Taylor is a loon and i stand by that, Read a lot of his previous postings and you might get to see that.

 

[IndoMike]

With the greatest respect DB, I've been saying pretty much the same thing for the past three years regarding Franco/German intentions regarding the supply of armaments to the rest of the EU. I would dearly love you and Arthur (if he doesn't find it toooo tedious) to check some of my previous posts concerning this subject simply to confirm my consistency. I so wish Al was around because we discussed this at length not so long ago. Also, you must remember that the French, Germans and the EU are very, very accommodating bedfellows

This is not a Grauniad link.

EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules

The World Trade Organisation rules the EU paid illegal aid to the European planemaker, paving the way for trade tariffs.

www.bbc.co.uk

Finally, please return to the Jeff Taylor link and towards it's end you will note he is simply 'quoting' this respected British General..

This is not a Grauniad link.

Jonathon Riley (British Army officer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Due to covid19 everyone is being subsidised now, Stuffers.

Regarding illegal subsidies, whilst two wrongs don't make a right, in't it true that the EU was driven to subsidise Airbus because the US has always directly or indirectly
subsidised Boeing? Even when Boeing was flying the fatally dangerous Max the US was slow to ground it.

 

[tavyred]

I don't really grasp your use of the forward slash in nationalism/patriotism. They are not the same thing and cannot be grouped together.

I was hoping that "levelling up" referred to improving the lot of the have - littles, not specifically the comparative budget per person in each of the four home countries.

However, regarding the fairness of how the budget is divided up, I assume this is done to keep the home nations onside, unless there is some other reason why they should get more per person - if that is true. And if it is true, I agree and don't see why Scotland, Wales and N Ireland should receive more per person

The distinction between nationalism and patriotism is one you choose to make not me.
To level up is to make something equal IMO, again the distinction you make is yours not mine. Although perhaps you are right, because by default unless you end the inbuilt system designed to favour one part of UK more than the other, then levelling up is a mere pipe dream.
Its certainly true that England does badly when it comes to public spending in comparison to the rest, there is no reason for that situation to exist other than an attempt to tie them to the Union IMO. A flipside of that situation is that England bears the brunt of the austerity years and lo and behold it drags Scotland out of the EU against its will.
Unless the English grievance is addressed the next UK schism is the end of the Union at the hands of the English. That said, Scottish independence is currently polling at 54%, here's hoping the Mad Jocks vote YES and with it instant penury.

 

[Stuffy]

Due to covid19 everyone is being subsidised now, Stuffers.

Regarding illegal subsidies, whilst two wrongs don't make a right, in't it true that the EU was driven to subsidise Airbus because the US has always directly or indirectly
subsidised Boeing? Even when Boeing was flying the fatally dangerous Max the US was slow to ground it.

I believe that is incorrect Mike. If the US Government did find it necessary for a while it was because the Boeing business was being seriously undermined. Here is another err, link..

U.S. Wins $7.5 Billion Award in Airbus Subsidies Case

Largest Ever WTO Award Paves the Way for U.S. Countermeasures

ustr.gov

 

[spanky]

Stuffy, For me i respect your view that you think an EU Army is coming but for me there are two things, I don't think it will happen, Even at the height of the Cold War we had Nato and the Soviets had The Warsaw Pact, All the nations had their own Armies but under the umbrella of an organisation which is a much more likely scenario if those EU countries want out of Nato and my second view is, If it happens so what, We're not in the EU now and have nothing to do with their decision making, So let them get on with it.

If EU countries have to buy weapons from other EU countries then that's up to them, They signed up for it so if they end up being the rules, Again nothing to do with us, As we are told by our Government there is a whole world to sell killing machines to so that's what we'll try to do. Again so what if the French, Germans and the EU are bedfellows, It was our decision to leave and we will have to compete with them when trying to sell all sorts of stuff, including arms sales, We have to make sure ours are better quaility and better value than the EU, That's captialism isn't it? Or is it not the right sort of capitalism you want or expected? If the WTO says the EU is ilegally subsidising Airbus then surely we're benefitting from that as we have lots of people employed by Airbus in the UK?

I'm have no interest in Jeff Taylor, He may quote a retired General but have you thought things have moved on since 2009 when the General retired? Jeff Taylor is a loon and i stand by that, Read a lot of his previous postings and you might get to see that.

DB, you've made some brilliant posts on this thread, and the other one, lately.

The problem, today, is that everyone is too busy looking for (and seeing) enemies everywhere, whether they exist or not. The reality is that their real enemies are much closer to home than they would care to realise.

 

[DB9]

DB, you've made some brilliant posts on this thread, and the other one, lately.

The problem, today, is that everyone is too busy looking for (and seeing) enemies everywhere, whether they exist or not. The reality is that their real enemies are much closer to home than they would care to realise.

Thanks Spanky, Could you tell my wife that too

 

[IndoMike]

Ok

I believe that is incorrect Mike. If the US Government did find it necessary for a while it was because the Boeing business was being seriously undermined. Here is another err, link..

U.S. Wins $7.5 Billion Award in Airbus Subsidies Case

Largest Ever WTO Award Paves the Way for U.S. Countermeasures

ustr.gov

OK Stuffers. I think you're saying that because Airbus was subsidised first then the US subsidised Boeing in retaliation.
To be honest, the business world and trade is getting so complicated that it's difficult to follow who did what and when.