Politics Today

[Mr Jinx]

Macron's 10 years was to enable him to sign up to the rest of it. When he doesn't get his 10 years, then what?

Seems like Macron, with one eye on the elections there in 18 months, made lavish promises to French fisherman and now doesn't want to be seen to be backing down.

I guess when there's 27 different countries to appease, talks were always going to fall down somewhere.

10 years access to out waters though is as outrageous as it is unacceptable. Boris cannot be blamed for walking away. Talks totally collapsing will be Macron's fault much to the chagrin of Merckel who just wants the while thing done already.

 

[RedPaul]

It did hamper them when criticising it though, leaving the field clear for the Lib Dems under Kennedy

Kennedy picked up votes from anti-war Labour types though. And the Tories were led by Michael Howard.
Likeability counts for a lot, and Charlie was liked. Howard wasn't.

 

[tavyred]

Wrong for all sorts of reasons:

1. Labour seem destined to have a significant rump of its membership that will yearn for a return to the EU fold, and as we are already seeing with the debate on Labour’s stance on ‘the deal’ it’s causing divisions. The stance on the deal is nothing to do with wanting to return to the EU or not - that is another question that can only be raised after we've been out for a few years. The stance on the deal should be about whether it is a measure worth backing, a measure that the Labour Party want to be associated with. The analogy with Iraq is a good one - why support something that you know is going to be a bad thing?

2. IMO it’s a terrible look electorally to constantly seek to distance Labour from the country’s choice to leave the EU It is not distancing Labour from the country's choice. It is perfectly possible to say, as Starmer has, "we've left, I accept that, it's time to move on" while at the same time saying "this is such a bad way of leaving we cannot in all honesty support it"

3. and was a significant factor in Labour’s shellacking in the last GE. As you say, the last GE. The next one will be completely different, fought on different issues. The idea that there will be lots of jobless northerners, their economy laid low by Covid and almost certainly Brexit, saying "we can't vote Labour because 4 years ago you didn't support Johnson's deal" is pretty absurd when you come to think about it .

4. Voting for the deal as the opposition will soon be forgotten in the undoubted recriminations that will follow. This is exactly Kinnock's point. There will be recriminations, as there were over the last major blunder the country made (Iraq) and the opposition will be constantly reminded that it supported Johnson' s Brexit. How can you imagine Labours voting record will "soon be forgotten"?

There’s only one thing problematic with your arguments there art.
They are all predicated on you and Labour thinking that “Brexit is a bad thing” and the belief that Brexit will inevitably be a disaster.
What if it isn’t?
How does Labour and it’s innate remain sensibilities navigate that particular outcome. It certainly doesn’t do it by voting against (or indeed abstaining) on Brexit stuff and displaying a constant desire to return to the EU membership debate.

 

[DB9]

Seems like Macron, with one eye on the elections there in 18 months, made lavish promises to French fisherman and now doesn't want to be seen to be backing down.

I guess when there's 27 different countries to appease, talks were always going to fall down somewhere.

10 years access to out waters though is as outrageous as it is unacceptable. Boris cannot be blamed for walking away. Talks totally collapsing will be Macron's fault much to the chagrin of Merckel who just wants the while thing done already.

And there you have it, An intransigent view that it will be all the EU's fault if talks fail and no blame laid at the UK's door. Two sides to this, If there's any blame both sides will have to take their share.

 

[RedPaul]

I've heard that once England's 1XV thrash France's 4XV in egg-chasing this afternoon, Macron will concede on fish!

 

[Mr Jinx]

And there you have it, An intransigent view that it will be all the EU's fault if talks fail and no blame laid at the UK's door. Two sides to this, If there's any blame both sides will have to take their share.

I think things are pretty clear cut. Macron wants 10 further years access to British fishing waters. Do you think that's acceptable?

 

[Alistair20000]

Kennedy picked up votes from anti-war Labour types though. And the Tories were led by Michael Howard.
Likeability counts for a lot, and Charlie was liked. Howard wasn't.

Agreed. I don't think Tory anti Iraq war supporters moved to the Lib Dems in any significant numbers. The Lib Dems were at that point the most left wing of the three largest parties and I saw nothing in the Tory performance in the 2005 General Election that could be attributed to supporting Blair and the government over the Iraq war.

 

[DB9]

I think things are pretty clear cut. Macron wants 10 further years access to British fishing waters. Do you think that's acceptable?

Personally I think if it's agreed then so be it but since you've said before that the fisheries thing is mainly symbolic and I have read that fisheries is a tiny % in the great scheme of things it doesn't really matter. If Macron wants access then that has to be negotiated.

 

[tavyred]

And there you have it, An intransigent view that it will be all the EU's fault if talks fail and no blame laid at the UK's door. Two sides to this, If there's any blame both sides will have to take their share.

Of course there are two sides here DB, I think even Jinxy and myself would flag up totally unreasonable demands if the U.K. were up to that sort of shenanigans, as far as I can see we aren’t. Where do you personally stand on EU access to UK waters? No access, multi year negotiation, yearly negotiation (the norm) or perhaps even the status quo?
Edit. Oops, Jinxy got in before me with the question.

 

[arthur]

and displaying a constant desire to return to the EU membership debate.

You seem to have invented a Labour party whose members are all either proponents of bizarre identity politics or are obsessed with rejoining the EU at the first opportunity.

The actual Labour Party is a lot more boring and mainstream than this...