Politics Today

[RedPaul]

As I said, who is going to mind if Labour don't back a crap deal? It's a Tory project and the Tories need to own it . And when it's a success the Tories can take the credit. And if by some remote chance it isn't, Labour can't then be blamed for supporting it.

Voting against though is clearly voting for no deal. If that's what they'd prefer, fine - vote against. Just be honest enough to say it.

Voting against the deal because 'you don't like it' or don't want Brexit even though it's already happened is not a justifiable position, unless there is some legitimate way that a rejection of the deal could lead to some sort of revised deal / extension but that seems highly, highly unlikely.

Who knows, if enough Labour rebel then the Tory no dealers might sit up and start doing the math. That's what happened with May remember.

 

[arthur]

Voting against though is clearly voting for no deal. If that's what they'd prefer, fine - vote against. Just be honest enough to say it.

Voting against the deal because 'you don't like it' or don't want Brexit even though it's already happened is not a justifiable position, unless there is some legitimate way that a rejection of the deal could lead to some sort of revised deal / extension but that seems highly, highly unlikely.

Who knows, if enough Labour rebel then the Tory no dealers might sit up and start doing the math. That's what happened with May remember.

It's just like the lockdown abstention - we support the principle (of having a deal) but not the way you're doing it. So we're abstaining

Labour obviously can't vote against a deal, because that means they're voting for No Deal so abstention is the only reasonable option.

And like the lockdown vote, the Tories would win comfortably. So their deal would pass , but Labour's fingerprints wouldn't be on it. And nor should they be.

 

[RedPaul]

I never did really understand what Starmer wanted on lockdown/tiers even though Spoonz kindly posted a video up. He wasn't convinced it would work (fair point), but he didn't explicitly say what he wanted instead other than 'more support' for those affected. Abstaining in the end seemed to sum up the position - we don't really know what we want but it's not really this.

On Brexit, it is bit odd to be talking about whipping or otherwise when we don't even know if there is a deal to be voted on. I find it odd how he can take a view without having read it, and he can't have read it as it doesn't exist in anything more than 95% draft. Unless, and conspiracy theory no 4, it is going to so enrage the Tory party that Boris has given Kier the wink and he is going to rely on Labour votes to pass it!

Anyway lets see. Macron seems to be playing hard ball as well with some unfortunate language about 'bringing the UK to heel' so it's probably 50:50 between a fudge and a blow up. Boris might not be spending much of his xmas in his bubble!

 

[Mr Jinx]

I never did really understand what Starmer wanted on lockdown/tiers even though Spoonz kindly posted a video up. He wasn't convinced it would work (fair point), but he didn't explicitly say what he wanted instead other than 'more support' for those affected. Abstaining in the end seemed to sum up the position - we don't really know what we want but it's not really this.

On Brexit, it is bit odd to be talking about whipping or otherwise when we don't even know if there is a deal to be voted on. I find it odd how he can take a view without having read it, and he can't have read it as it doesn't exist in anything more than 95% draft. Unless, and conspiracy theory no 4, it is going to so enrage the Tory party that Boris has given Kier the wink and he is going to rely on Labour votes to pass it!

Yes, I think that's it essentially. Mass abstention just sends the message that you don't really have much of an opinion either way. That's usually fine when the bills are unimportant. Most are. But this one is big. It's an open goal which the Government will pounce on and it looks like they have.

Anyway lets see. Macron seems to be playing hard ball as well with some unfortunate language about 'bringing the UK to heel' so it's probably 50:50 between a fudge and a blow up. Boris might not be spending much of his xmas in his bubble!

I have always expected it to be done at a few minutes to midnight on Dec 31st, if at all. That's just how the EU does things and always has: ie when all parties are staring into the abyss. I'd say it's in the balance too; No Deal is a distinct possibility.

 

[arthur]

I have always expected it to be done at a few minutes to midnight on Dec 31st, if at all. That's just how the EU does things and always has: ie when all parties are staring into the abyss. I'd say it's in the balance too; No Deal is a distinct possibility.

Yes, this is the prevailing folk wisdom. It rather overlooks the fact that this is the modus operandi when the EU members are negotiating amongst themselves and a compromise has to be sought. The current situation is significantly different - they are negotiating with a non member and, while a compromise is highly desirable, it is not essential

 

[arthur]

But this one is big. It's an open goal which the Government will pounce on and it looks like they have.

Could you describe this open goal to me and how Johnson will roll the ball into the net? I'm interested to know, as I can't see it myself

 

[Mr Jinx]

Yes, this is the prevailing folk wisdom. It rather overlooks the fact that this is the modus operandi when the EU members are negotiating amongst themselves and a compromise has to be sought. The current situation is significantly different - they are negotiating with a non member and, while a compromise is highly desirable, it is not essential

Yes, negotiating with one country, but the EU has 28 countries of its own to consider. RP mentioned Macron and his particular beef. There's 27 others that may well have their noses out of joint around different other bits.

 

[elginCity]

Yes, this is the prevailing folk wisdom. It rather overlooks the fact that this is the modus operandi when the EU members are negotiating amongst themselves and a compromise has to be sought. The current situation is significantly different - they are negotiating with a non member and, while a compromise is highly desirable, it is not essential

Good point, art. Not only a third country like Canada, but a competitor right on its own doorstep, and because of that, they will not budge on the 'level playing field' requirement.

If the Johnson caves in on that point, ECJ oversight, we might as well re-join EFTA and stay in the single market. Not sure there's the appetite or will any more for a Farage + ERG Reform UK party, but Jinx would disagree of course.

 

[Mr Jinx]

Could you describe this open goal to me and how Johnson will roll the ball into the net? I'm interested to know, as I can't see it myself

Some headlines in the Telegraph yday:

By abstaining on the lockdown vote, Starmer has condemned Labour to irrelevance.

The default dithering doesn’t simply undermine his status as a leader, it weakens our politics.

I'm sure Boris will be putting words along those lines into his armoury to be used some time later.

 

[Grecian2K]

Ah, the Torygraph. Long known for their slavish loyalty to the Labour party.

Sir Kier must be quaking in his shoes that they're now trying to throw dirt in his direction!