Caldwell out?

[SaintJames]

Given how many key players we lost at the end of last season, and that we are currently above last season's finishing position, is Gary Caldwell over-achieving?

You cant judge that till the end of the season

 

[antman]

You cant judge that till the end of the season

I meant now, at the moment. The use of the present continuous tense "over-achieving" or (as the Americans more aptly label it) the "present progressive" indicates something in progress that is not complete yet.

 

[SaintJames]

I meant now, at the moment. The use of the present continuous tense "over-achieving" or (as the Americans more aptly label it) the "present progressive" indicates something in progress that is not complete yet.

I knew what you meant but if we went on a run of 6 straight defeats we would spend all our time discussing going from over to under achieving. That's why imo we should wait at the very least until we are mathematically safe

 

[AndyR]

I'm struggling to see why there is now any justification at all for this thread or indeed the fact that, after 4 wins out of 5 including 3 difficult fixtures away from home, as I type this there are 209 fans who would basically walk into ECFC and sack the Manager tomorrow. Really?! Are you all stark raving mad?

And it doesn't work by saying it's all about the style of play or the bigger picture. Many of you were saying "I'd have sacked him after Fleetwood or Bolton [or whatever]" Doesn't the same apply now? Or would you join the Clubs who are enjoying such huge success under new Managers - Carlisle, Fleetwood, Port Vale, Charlton, and a few others including (I'm more reluctant to say) our old mate MT at the Gas, whose last two home matches have been defeats to Fleetwood and Burton and where there are more than a few mutterings on their forum about.....the style of play.

No doubt at all that mistakes were made and compounded by multiple injuries, and there'll almost certainly be further setbacks but basically we're on the up.

 

[Average Joe]

Does

If indeed Gary does manage to keep us up I wonder if the magnitude of the achievement will be lost on some of the posters on here.

Why would it be a huge achievement?

We're not in the championship or prem..

We won our rights to be in league one, GC has been backed considerably more then any other manager in our history.

We should comfortably finish above relegation zone. Lower mid table should be our expectations.

 

[Red Bill]

I haven't contributed to this thread yet because i haven't been going to games this season and have only watched a few ifollow replays to get any first hand knowledge of our performances, so I haven't felt qualified to comment. However I have got opinions on our manager and his appointment and treatment by our board, so thought I'd share them.

I liked GC right from the start. I thought it was great to have someone with so much experience of top level football, which is something we haven't really had before. I know Ball and Francis had both played at the top level, but i think we'd al agree that football has moved on a lot from their days. People have been very critical of his appointment due to his perceived record which many posters have described as terrible. However, we are only his 4th managerial appointment. In his first, he took his side to the L1 title and was LMA manager of the year. however he was sacked by the following October. When he took over at Chesterfield, they were already a basket case and they continued to plummet after his departure, so I don't read too much into that spell. I know nothing about Scottish football so have no idea about the circumstances of his time at Partick, however he was again sacked relatively early in the season, so this failure shouldn't be ignored just because of lack of knowledge of Scottish football. So his time in management has certainly had ups and downs, and its probably fair to say there were more downs but that doesn't mean we should therefore just ignore the ups and for this reason and the e fact that most managers have had some failures, he still deserved his interview when he applied for the job with us.

As for the recruitment process itself, it was probably the most grown up process you're ever likely to see in football and one that anyone outside of football who's had anything to do with recruiting new staff would be very familiar with. I know someone who was on the panel, and they said he gave a brilliant interview and had answers for every one of the apparently very tough questions that were put to the candidates. I was told that he was the obvious stand out candidate who had a very clear vision for the club and very convincingly seemed to buy into the clubs ethos and set up. In any recruitment you should give the job to the best candidate, so I have no issue at all with him being given the job. Of course as an employer you never really know what will happen until they begin work but you should have the belief that your recruitment process is sound or else why bother.

On the whole i think his player recruitment has been very good, there was the one major failure in the summer window that we are all too well aware of, the failure to sign a striker and allowing our only contracted striker to leave on the last day of the window without having a replacement. There's no getting away from it, that was a serious failure which cannot be ignored. Apart from that however I've been very happy with all his signings except for Scott, but then you never have success with all your signings. Some of the signings didn't appear to be going too well this season but personally i think I put all that down to the lack of a striker, and lets face it since Cox came back from Yeovil a different player and gave the team some focus up front, pretty much all of the performances from these players have significantly improved.

So now we come to the terrible form after such a great start and the whole in out debate. Whilst I think there were mitigating factors for the bad run like the lack of a strike and terrible luck with injuries to key players and new signings, plus the complete loss of confidence as the run extended, its the mangers job to find a way round these issues when things are difficult and by the end of November, it didn't look like he had any idea how to do this. So by this time i regretfully took the opinion that he should go. I probably stayed loyal longer than i should have, simply because I really like the man. However that's a terrible reason not to take the difficult decision to relieve him of his post.

As we know however, that didn't happen and the board stood by him. Something they've taken a lot of criticism for but however now look to have been a brave decision that has paid off. I read countless arguments on this thread about the rights and wrongs and endless "he'd have lost his job at any other club" comments. But there's one factor in this decision by the board that I don't think anyone has really explored fully, and that's the issue of being given time. GC has said that the fact that managers are given time here, was one of the things that attracted him to the job. Recruitment these days is much more two way thing, it's no longer just the employer saying what you will do but the prospective employee, particularly at senior management level, will lay out his expectations from the employer. I feel its highly likely that GC will have asked for assurances that he will be given time, which effectively means, will you stick by me if things aren't going well and give me time to put it right? I very much expect that GC did get those assurances and this will have shaped their IMO brave decision to continue to back him. I'm sure there are those who will accuse the board of backing themselves into a corner if my suppositions here are correct, but at the end of the day you either believe in giving someone time or you don't. Obviously our board do and have honoured their commitment. Given the upturn in form and our league position, it now looks like this was a good decision and we have avoided the expenditure and turmoil replacing him would have caused.

I'm delighted he looks to have turned things around and am very happy for him to stay in position for now. As I said I really like the man, I believe he's using all his experience of top level clubs to transform our club into a highly polished and professional club, doing things as closely to what the top clubs do within the constraints of our finances. I believe he's genuinely brought into our model and the community aspect of everything its about. I do still have concerns about his ability to deal with adversity and maybe someone who could be very good when things are fine, but when some of the pieces go missing he doesn't have the skills to grind out the results.

So for now I'd say I was Caldwell in, but no one should have a job for life in this business no matter how much of a nice guy they may be, and should the situation look irredeemable in the future, then the tough decisions will have to be made. At the moment though, i hope it never comes to that and GC goes on to be a hugely successful manager for us.

 

[cannockred]

I haven't contributed to this thread yet because i haven't been going to games this season and have only watched a few ifollow replays to get any first hand knowledge of our performances, so I haven't felt qualified to comment. However I have got opinions on our manager and his appointment and treatment by our board, so thought I'd share them.

I liked GC right from the start. I thought it was great to have someone with so much experience of top level football, which is something we haven't really had before. I know Ball and Francis had both played at the top level, but i think we'd al agree that football has moved on a lot from their days. People have been very critical of his appointment due to his perceived record which many posters have described as terrible. However, we are only his 4th managerial appointment. In his first, he took his side to the L1 title and was LMA manager of the year. however he was sacked by the following October. When he took over at Chesterfield, they were already a basket case and they continued to plummet after his departure, so I don't read too much into that spell. I know nothing about Scottish football so have no idea about the circumstances of his time at Partick, however he was again sacked relatively early in the season, so this failure shouldn't be ignored just because of lack of knowledge of Scottish football. So his time in management has certainly had ups and downs, and its probably fair to say there were more downs but that doesn't mean we should therefore just ignore the ups and for this reason and the e fact that most managers have had some failures, he still deserved his interview when he applied for the job with us.

As for the recruitment process itself, it was probably the most grown up process you're ever likely to see in football and one that anyone outside of football who's had anything to do with recruiting new staff would be very familiar with. I know someone who was on the panel, and they said he gave a brilliant interview and had answers for every one of the apparently very tough questions that were put to the candidates. I was told that he was the obvious stand out candidate who had a very clear vision for the club and very convincingly seemed to buy into the clubs ethos and set up. In any recruitment you should give the job to the best candidate, so I have no issue at all with him being given the job. Of course as an employer you never really know what will happen until they begin work but you should have the belief that your recruitment process is sound or else why bother.

On the whole i think his player recruitment has been very good, there was the one major failure in the summer window that we are all too well aware of, the failure to sign a striker and allowing our only contracted striker to leave on the last day of the window without having a replacement. There's no getting away from it, that was a serious failure which cannot be ignored. Apart from that however I've been very happy with all his signings except for Scott, but then you never have success with all your signings. Some of the signings didn't appear to be going too well this season but personally i think I put all that down to the lack of a striker, and lets face it since Cox came back from Yeovil a different player and gave the team some focus up front, pretty much all of the performances from these players have significantly improved.

So now we come to the terrible form after such a great start and the whole in out debate. Whilst I think there were mitigating factors for the bad run like the lack of a strike and terrible luck with injuries to key players and new signings, plus the complete loss of confidence as the run extended, its the mangers job to find a way round these issues when things are difficult and by the end of November, it didn't look like he had any idea how to do this. So by this time i regretfully took the opinion that he should go. I probably stayed loyal longer than i should have, simply because I really like the man. However that's a terrible reason not to take the difficult decision to relieve him of his post.

As we know however, that didn't happen and the board stood by him. Something they've taken a lot of criticism for but however now look to have been a brave decision that has paid off. I read countless arguments on this thread about the rights and wrongs and endless "he'd have lost his job at any other club" comments. But there's one factor in this decision by the board that I don't think anyone has really explored fully, and that's the issue of being given time. GC has said that the fact that managers are given time here, was one of the things that attracted him to the job. Recruitment these days is much more two way thing, it's no longer just the employer saying what you will do but the prospective employee, particularly at senior management level, will lay out his expectations from the employer. I feel its highly likely that GC will have asked for assurances that he will be given time, which effectively means, will you stick by me if things aren't going well and give me time to put it right? I very much expect that GC did get those assurances and this will have shaped their IMO brave decision to continue to back him. I'm sure there are those who will accuse the board of backing themselves into a corner if my suppositions here are correct, but at the end of the day you either believe in giving someone time or you don't. Obviously our board do and have honoured their commitment. Given the upturn in form and our league position, it now looks like this was a good decision and we have avoided the expenditure and turmoil replacing him would have caused.

I'm delighted he looks to have turned things around and am very happy for him to stay in position for now. As I said I really like the man, I believe he's using all his experience of top level clubs to transform our club into a highly polished and professional club, doing things as closely to what the top clubs do within the constraints of our finances. I believe he's genuinely brought into our model and the community aspect of everything its about. I do still have concerns about his ability to deal with adversity and maybe someone who could be very good when things are fine, but when some of the pieces go missing he doesn't have the skills to grind out the results.

So for now I'd say I was Caldwell in, but no one should have a job for life in this business no matter how much of a nice guy they may be, and should the situation look irredeemable in the future, then the tough decisions will have to be made. At the moment though, i hope it never comes to that and GC goes on to be a hugely successful manager for us.

A perfect post Byll that sums up my thoughts.

In addition to this, the vitriol on this site and the demands of the vociferous out brigade against GC and the board was a disgrace on an anonymous forum during the time that I felt that, for his own sanity and for the future if the club, the board should have discussed his removal.

They did and decided that he should stay. However the experts on here decided they were right and continued the vitriol. This is a fans forum and people are entitled to their opinions, but some of the ***** posted on here was appalling.

Their decision has been vindicated so far and long may it do so if it means that the club that we love remains at least at the level it sits at now or above.

 

[Devon Red]

Out of interest, what posts were appalling?

 

[SaintJames]

Out of interest, what posts were appalling?

anything from spirerite in peace lol

 

[edwin_price]

I'm struggling to see why there is now any justification at all for this thread

Threads dont require justification. They're started and then continue to the extent that people want to comment on them (as you've just done).