Politics Today

[Devon Red]

It won't be Armageddon if we leave with a deal. It's just that the country will be worse off in many different ways compared to if we'd remained. Some of these worse offs won't be immediately apparent but will be there all the same.
At the same time I cant conceive of any ways in which we'll be better off. Can you give me some help with this?

Of course...

1 - Cost saving. We pay in about £13bn per year to the EU but only receive £4.5bn back.

2 - The ability to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

3 - Giving power back to voters. As present, what say do we have in who runs the EU? Can we vote out any of the big wigs on the top table?

4 - Immigration. We can control our borders. This doesn't necessarily mean we will lower immigration, we can increase and decrease depending on our needs. If we have a shortage of nurses, let's get some nurses. However, if we want to slow immigration down, we can. At present, what is stopping millions from landing on our doorstep tomorrow? Can we cope if this happened?

5 - Security. The ability to control borders will make us more secure.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

 

[ramone]

My issue with the forecasts we have seen is that I can't help but feel they have been massively exaggerated to suit their own political agenda.

Why do some feel that the world will crumble beneath our feet while Robert Dyson and Tim Martin believe we will flourish?

For the record, I don't believe we will leave the EU. Whether you are a remainer or leaver, a vote not being carried out by Government would be tragic and you'll never see me vote again.

These warnings that will all perish should we leave Europe seem very similar to the Y2K thing almost 20 years ago ! If there is the slightest hint that something could go wrong you can bet your a$$ the doom mongers will be out in force , as has been shown since the vote to leave.
I'm with you on not voting again for anything should we not leave, And think there will be many others who will spoil ballot papers in the future.

 

[arthur]

Thanks:
1 - Cost saving. We pay in about £13bn per year to the EU but only receive £4.5bn back.
You have not factored in the loss to the economy and resulting diminution of tax receipts caused by our not having free trade with an enormous market on our doorstep. This is likely to be far higher than the reduction in our net contribution to the EU which at the moment is less than 1% of all public spending.

2 - The ability to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
We already have numerous trade deals with countries around the world through our membership of the EU. What makes you think the ones we negotiate from scratch, which will take years, will be any more advantageous? And how is the UK going to get on negotiating with places like China and America, places that dwarf us in terms of their economic power and influence? Compare this with negotiating with these places via the EU, when we'd be in a far stronger negotiating position.

3 - Giving power back to voters. As present, what say do we have in who runs the EU? Can we vote out any of the big wigs on the top table?
All power is relative. How much power do we have to remove our current government - a tick in a box once every five years.. We have a say in who runs the EU through the European Parliament and through the Commissioners that are appointed by our own government. It's true we can't sack EU civil servants, but we can't sack British ones either

4 - Immigration. We can control our borders. This doesn't necessarily mean we will lower immigration, we can increase and decrease depending on our needs. If we have a shortage of nurses, let's get some nurses. However, if we want to slow immigration down, we can. At present, what is stopping millions from landing on our doorstep tomorrow? Can we cope if this happened? I'll leave Rachel to answer this point

5 - Security. The ability to control borders will make us more secure.
We already control our borders. Or am I imagining flying into Exeter Airport one evening from Alicante on a flight that had been delayed for two hours while my fellow tourists and I had to queue up at 1230 a.m. beside notices saying how tough the Border Force was in order to get our passports checked?

Just a few things off the top of my head...

 

[arthur]

Arthur. You raise this very important point, but is anything happening about it or is it being ignored?

Lawyers to try to stop Boris Johnson putting Brexit deal before MPs

Legal action to be lodged in Scotland on basis withdrawal agreement contravenes law

www.theguardian.com

 

[Devon Red]

Thanks:
1 - Cost saving. We pay in about £13bn per year to the EU but only receive £4.5bn back.
You have not factored in the loss to the economy and resulting diminution of tax receipts caused by our not having free trade with an enormous market on our doorstep. This is likely to be far higher than the reduction in our net contribution to the EU which at the moment is less than 1% of all public spending.

2 - The ability to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
We already have numerous trade deals with countries around the world through our membership of the EU. What makes you think the ones we negotiate from scratch, which will take years, will be any more advantageous? And how is the UK going to get on negotiating with places like China and America, places that dwarf us in terms of their economic power and influence? Compare this with negotiating with these places via the EU, when we'd be in a far stronger negotiating position.

3 - Giving power back to voters. As present, what say do we have in who runs the EU? Can we vote out any of the big wigs on the top table?
All power is relative. How much power do we have to remove our current government - a tick in a box once every five years.. We have a say in who runs the EU through the European Parliament and through the Commissioners that are appointed by our own government. It's true we can't sack EU civil servants, but we can't sack British ones either

4 - Immigration. We can control our borders. This doesn't necessarily mean we will lower immigration, we can increase and decrease depending on our needs. If we have a shortage of nurses, let's get some nurses. However, if we want to slow immigration down, we can. At present, what is stopping millions from landing on our doorstep tomorrow? Can we cope if this happened? I'll leave Rachel to answer this point

5 - Security. The ability to control borders will make us more secure.
We already control our borders. Or am I imagining flying into Exeter Airport one evening from Alicante on a flight that had been delayed for two hours while my fellow tourists and I had to queue up at 1230 a.m. beside notices saying how tough the Border Force was in order to get our passports checked?

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Fair enough, we can both dig out figures and videos all night. The fact of the matter is it's all down to opinion.

We might leave and I may have to accept I made the wrong choice in voting to leave, however you may also one day accept you were wrong.

We will see. One thing this whole Brexit thing has done is shown that we are all united in that we all want what is best for the country. Thought i'd try and sign off on a positive note!

 

[IndoMike]

My issue with the forecasts we have seen is that I can't help but feel they have been massively exaggerated to suit their own political agenda.

Why do some feel that the world will crumble beneath our feet while Robert Dyson and Tim Martin believe we will flourish?

For the record, I don't believe we will leave the EU. Whether you are a remainer or leaver, a vote not being carried out by Government would be tragic and you'll never see me vote again.

Traditionally, big business tends towards the Conservative Party, although surprisingly that trend was surprisingly broken temporarily when Blair was the main man.
The main agenda of big business is making money,and they seem to be very concerned about BREXIT
I don't believe that many think that BREXIT will be the end of the world for the UK - that comment is your own exaggeration - not the exaggeration of Leavers. But the economy will undoubtedly suffer - even Gove accepts that.And we lose the benefits of being a member of a large trading, political group. Culturally we will be worse off with less interaction between us and Europe. There will be less sharing of scientific and technical knowledge : remember we will become competitors of the EU, no longer partners.
And we're STILL waiting for LEAVERS to list the advantages of leaving the EU. Incredible that they just cannot produce such a list. How can they feel so strongly about something but not provide any justification? How can they argue when they have no argument.? That alone means that they must be wrong.

 

[IndoMike]

Lawyers to try to stop Boris Johnson putting Brexit deal before MPs

Legal action to be lodged in Scotland on basis withdrawal agreement contravenes law

www.theguardian.com

Thanks, Arthur.
Is this cut and dried, or is there a caveat?
PS. Excuse my ignorance, but why are all the legal challenges made to the Scottish courts first?

 

[Mr Jinx]

Things just get worse for Gramps. I didn't think it were possible.

 

[IndoMike]

Of course...

1 - Cost saving. We pay in about £13bn per year to the EU but only receive £4.5bn back.

2 - The ability to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

3 - Giving power back to voters. As present, what say do we have in who runs the EU? Can we vote out any of the big wigs on the top table?

4 - Immigration. We can control our borders. This doesn't necessarily mean we will lower immigration, we can increase and decrease depending on our needs. If we have a shortage of nurses, let's get some nurses. However, if we want to slow immigration down, we can. At present, what is stopping millions from landing on our doorstep tomorrow? Can we cope if this happened?

5 - Security. The ability to control borders will make us more secure.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Just to add to Arthur's comments above, which I wholeheartedly agree with, what makes you think that leaving the EU will help control illegal immigration? Will it stop people arriving on our shores in boats and rafts?
Regarding immigration from the EU : tens of thousands of young Europeans come to the UK to work in the service industries or to start up restos and other businesses which provide employment.

You have to remember that the UK has an aging population : we need people to work and to start small businesses.

 

[arthur]

Things just get worse for Gramps. I didn't think it were possible.

I do hope it is possible