F.l.a.f

WXF

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I'm genuinely surprised Temporarily exiled is still posting on this thread. Mods, why hasn't he been at least temporarily banned for his comments about Ramone?
I imagine because they have shown how their comments were evidenced and balanced. People do tend to notice obviously false allegations. Good Sun editorial today btw criticising Yaxley-Lennon: https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1024925435673620480

Temporarily Exiled has shown you malcolms that they have a better understanding and that their comments were not a disgrace, but fair. You should account for this but you are instead coming across like a kid.
 

ExeterCityLad

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I imagine because they have shown how their comments were evidenced and balanced. People do tend to notice obviously false allegations. Good Sun editorial today btw criticising Yaxley-Lennon: https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1024925435673620480

Temporarily Exiled has shown you malcolms that they have a better understanding and that their comments were not a disgrace, but fair. You should account for this but you are instead coming across like a kid.
The clear issue raised on this thread isn't about Tommy and his views, but more so about how the court rushed him through in 5 hours after his arrest and how he was improperly treated and tried. Anyone who believes in due process and supports fair trial dating back to the Magna Carta would also support Tommy in this. Whether you agree or disagree with his beliefs outside of the legal process.

This is also why his comments were ill-thought, and he should withdraw them and/or a mod should take serious action in someone calling someone a fascist sympathiser for supporting the legal system we have in this country. It's nothing short of slander and probably not only liable, but Exeweb liable as well.
 
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malcolms

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I'm not sure that Adolf would have stood up if you had shouted "stand up all you Socialists"...He was, by definition, an opportunist and not necessarily driven by anything other than a desire to be Numero Uno... The point I was making, and a point that is part of history, is that fascists can come from right and left of the political spectrum and to try to pin an ideological label on such a confliction is not only misguided but ultimately, futile.
 
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Temporarily Exiled

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And oddly enough, you are behaving like a..........Fascist...strange that :)
How am I behaving like a fascist? It's a pretty serious accusation to be throwing around.

I'm genuinely surprised Temporarily exiled is still posting on this thread. Mods, why hasn't he been at least temporarily banned for his comments about Ramone?
What did I say specifically that was inaccurate? Surely anybody saying that right-wing Tommy Robinson types are necessary at football grounds are sympathising with fascists.

You're trying to argue hitler wasn't a socialist. And you're suggesting Malcs hasn't got a leg to stand on?

And guess what your proof of this is? Snopes fact-check article.

Forget what Hitler himself has said in mass rallies, forget that he led the national socialist workers party, let's look at his policies shall we?

Innovated public work schemes which gave workers increased benefits
Promising everyone a job - Which he created jobs by increasing the state, then allowing wages to rise with prices because he wanted people working for the Government
Free daycare and big on education, basically an entire generation raised by the state
Nationalised healthcare
Up to an 80% tax
Implemented gun control

I could literally go on and on forever. But to somehow claim Hitler wasn't a hard-left wing socialist proves you haven't got a clue what you're on about.
I'm not sure you read the article - it kinda demolishes all the points you're making. Howabout something from renowned historians Ian Kershaw, Richard Evans and Joachim Fest instead?

Ian Kershaw said:
[Hitler] was wholly ignorant of any formal understanding of the principles of economics. For him, as he stated to the industrialists, economics was of secondary importance, entirely subordinated to politics. His crude social-Darwinism dictated his approach to the economy, as it did his entire political “world-view.” Since struggle among nations would be decisive for future survival, Germany’s economy had to be subordinated to the preparation, then carrying out, of this struggle. This meant that liberal ideas of economic competition had to be replaced by the subjection of the economy to the dictates of the national interest. Similarly, any “socialist” ideas in the Nazi programme had to follow the same dictates. Hitler was never a socialist. But although he upheld private property, individual entrepreneurship, and economic competition, and disapproved of trade unions and workers’ interference in the freedom of owners and managers to run their concerns, the state, not the market, would determine the shape of economic development. Capitalism was, therefore, left in place. But in operation it was turned into an adjunct of the state.
Richard Evans said:
In the climate of postwar counter-revolution, national brooding on the “stab-in-the-back,” and obsession with war profiteers and merchants of the rapidly mushrooming hyperinflation, Hitler concentrated especially on rabble-rousing attacks on “Jewish” merchants who were supposedly pushing up the price of goods: they should all, he said, to shouts of approval from his audiences, be strung up. Perhaps to emphasize this anti-capitalist focus, and to align itself with similar groups in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the party changed its name in February 1920 to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party…. Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth from, socialism. True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be “the socialism of fools.” But from the very beginning, Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism: after all, the “November traitors” who had signed the Armistice and later the Treaty of Versailles were not Communists at all, but the Social Democrats.
Joachim Fest said:
This ideology took a leftist label chiefly for tactical reasons. It demanded, within the party and within the state, a powerful system of rule that would exercise unchallenged leadership over the “great mass of the anonymous.” And whatever premises the party may have started with, by 1930 Hitler’s party was “socialist” only to take advantage of the emotional value of the word, and a “workers’ party” in order to lure the most energetic social force. As with Hitler’s protestations of belief in tradition, in conservative values, or in Christianity, the socialist slogans were merely movable ideological props to serve as camouflage and confuse the enemy.
Alternatively, there's an article in The Telegraph also argues strongly against the Nazis being socialists, if you prefer that as a source.

He was your types leader back in the 1940s.
You don't even know which, if any, political party I support. You're also now calling me a Nazi, which means we can officially close this discussion.
 
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ramone

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If i had to agree with you we would both be wrong
Agreed.

And again, a call to Ramone and co – where is this evidence of left-wing supporters in Dulwich Hamlet beating up fans inside the ground? Or even having an ideology that is in any way dangerous? Maybe they have political beliefs that you, as fascist-sympathisers disagree with – but dangerous?
Where did I mention Dulwich ? Where did I mention beating up fans INSIDE a football ground ? C'mon if your going to call me a fascist sympathiser at least get your facts clear !
 

Temporarily Exiled

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Where did I mention Dulwich ? Where did I mention beating up fans INSIDE a football ground ? C'mon if your going to call me a fascist sympathiser at least get your facts clear !
Yeah, got my wires crossed on that one, apologies - that was more for Grecian Max. Still don't accept apologising for right-wing hate groups though, so I stand by my original comment, as controversial as it comes across.

This is also why his comments were ill-thought, and he should withdraw them and/or a mod should take serious action in someone calling someone a fascist sympathiser for supporting the legal system we have in this country. It's nothing short of slander and probably not only liable, but Exeweb liable as well.
As somebody with a decent understanding of these laws.... no. The Defamation Act 2013 raised the bar for libel significantly, with claimants (ramone) being required to show actual or probable serious harm. That's quite a high bar to meet for commoners like us, especially on an anonymised forum.
 
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ramone

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If i had to agree with you we would both be wrong
I'm genuinely surprised Temporarily exiled is still posting on this thread. Mods, why hasn't he been at least temporarily banned for his comments about Ramone?
Don't fret yourself mate I can handle the left wing when the typical

" This isn't a debate. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is one. In a debate, there is a side that may have a good point, and another side that may have a good point. You are not engaging in a debate because you have no leg to stand on." rears its ugly head from the sand.

The Liberal Antifa lot use this as an argument towards who they think are the right wing everytime because they cant put together a decent argument.
 

Temporarily Exiled

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Don't fret yourself mate I can handle the left wing when the typical

" This isn't a debate. Don't fool yourself into thinking it is one. In a debate, there is a side that may have a good point, and another side that may have a good point. You are not engaging in a debate because you have no leg to stand on." rears its ugly head from the sand.

The Liberal Antifa lot use this as an argument towards who they think are the right wing everytime because they cant put together a decent argument.
'Antifa' is such a strange pejorative. 'Anti-fascist'. Well, I mean, aren't most of us?

There is no debate to be had with fascist arguments. There is no reason for those points to be legitimised. There is never a good reason for fascism. By engaging in a debate on that topic, all I would do is legitimise that viewpoint – as a viewpoint that should be or can be discussed. It is not. That is why I do not debate fascist talking points.

I will talk about Brexit with you until the cows come home. Austerity too. The welfare state. The NHS. Workers' rights. FPTP Vs STV. But not fascism. This isn't about left vs right. This is about not legitimising the ideology that led to the biggest war in human history.
 
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ramone

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If i had to agree with you we would both be wrong
'Antifa' is such a strange pejorative. 'Anti-fascist'. Well, I mean, aren't most of us?

This is about not legitimising the ideology that led to the biggest war in human history.
Most probably are but that's not to say because you personally feel that way others aren't entitled to their opinions because that would in itself make you a fascist ? No ?

The biggest war wasn't actually started over fascism it was started mainly down to militarism, alliances, imperialism and at the time of the First World War the fascists weren't really in the frame it wasn't until the Second World War that they became a force and their own agenda driven by a jumped up Corporal.

Just to let you know I have done my time in as did my father and his before him standing up to fascists and others who try to impose their views and values on others !
 
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