Neil Lennon

[Jason H]

I don't condone coins being thrown, as I am at pains to point out (and nobody in this thread has condoned the actions of the fans), but moreover I know the psyche of the more, ahem, "passionate" Football supporter. Situations like the one described are a powder keg waiting to go off, Lennon lit the fuse.

I suspect you're trying a bit of the old moral superiority and reading what you want to read in order to make a point, rather than what was actually written.

Do I think Lennon should have been pelted with a coin? No.
Do I think Lennon knew there was a possibility of him coming to harm by his actions? Yes.
Would Lennon have been pelted with a coin had he not taunted the crowd (even if this is "payback")? Almost certainly not.

One can condemn the actions without condoning the reactions.

 

[Bittners a Legend]

I don't condone coins being thrown, as I am at pains to point out (and nobody in this thread has condoned the actions of the fans), but moreover I know the psyche of the more, ahem, "passionate" Football supporter. Situations like the one described are a powder keg waiting to go off, Lennon lit the fuse.

I suspect you're trying a bit of the old moral superiority and reading what you want to read in order to make a point, rather than what was actually written.

Do I think Lennon should have been pelted with a coin? No.
Do I think Lennon knew there was a possibility of him coming to harm by his actions? Yes.
Would Lennon have been pelted with a coin had he not taunted the crowd (even if this is "payback")? Almost certainly not.

One can condemn the actions without condoning the reactions.

You're actually being a bit harsh. I am not trying to claim any moral superiority. I have no interest in any personal moral high ground and I'm not sure what has got to do with anything. As I have stated, I love football and this is not football to me. I think we should condemn it unreservedly, not focus on the behaviour of the victim. I was genuinely surprised reading this thread that the tone was so critical of Lennon and not the fan, hence my comments. Indeed if you go back to your OP you do appear to be making light of the incident/mocking Lennon ("glances" him on the cheek, "down like a sack of spuds").

I think the fact that we are normalising that he might come to harm as a result of his actions (as per your second question) is quite sad. You said "Of course the Hearts fans were going to take this in good grace and chuckle along with him" but there is quite a big difference between them taking it in good grace and throwing coins at him that could have caused real damage.

You can, obviously, condemn the actions without condoning the reactions but that is to completely miss the point and is utterly defeatist. Lennon's behaviour might not have been impeccable but I fundamentally disagree that he "lit the fuse". It is incredibly simplistic to say so. It is just football and the situation should not be a "powder keg". I am not trying to be politically correct, I love rivalry, but violence is not ok. It is not normal to respond to his behaviour by trying to hurt him. There should not be an excuse for coin throwing and so focusing on Lennon's actions risks condoning the reaction whether or not you intend to in my opinion.

 

[Grecian2K]

He should count his blessings.

At least it was "only" a coin...unlike his poor "uncle" John.

 

[DB9]

What we in England don't realise is that in Scotland sectarianism is pretty much an ongoing issue, Lennon played and managed Celtic and now at Hibs, Both with strong Catholic and republican feelings, It won't take much from the Hibs side to rile some Neanderthal in the stands to throw something and don't forget the Heart's keeper was punched by a Hibs fan too in the same game. Lennon is a dick and was stupid for what he did but didn't deserve the coin thrown at him

 

[Avening Posse]

I'm surprised he works up there. In the past he received death threats etc, and I recall after he left all that and managed in England, he went public to say what a relief it was. He is clearly a hate figure for some north of the border and surely life is too short for the extra stress

 

[StroudGrecian]

I'm surprised he works up there. In the past he received death threats etc, and I recall after he left all that and managed in England, he went public to say what a relief it was. He is clearly a hate figure for some north of the border and surely life is too short for the extra stress

I agree AP, though he also appears to be a hate figure for some on exeweb (facepalm).

Seems he has some strange compulsion to play/manage north of the border, 'like a dog returning to its own vomit'.

 

[elginCity]

I agree AP, though he also appears to be a hate figure for some on exeweb (facepalm)..

An exeweb 'hate figure' ? How do you work that one out ? Talking of dogs, if Neil Lennon pulled the tail of an angry dog you'd also think him dim !

Lennon is the subject of this thread and his perceived incitement to violence, not the ***** who reacted and tossed a quid his way.

 

[Terryhall]

You're actually being a bit harsh. I am not trying to claim any moral superiority. I have no interest in any personal moral high ground and I'm not sure what has got to do with anything. As I have stated, I love football and this is not football to me. I think we should condemn it unreservedly, not focus on the behaviour of the victim. I was genuinely surprised reading this thread that the tone was so critical of Lennon and not the fan, hence my comments. Indeed if you go back to your OP you do appear to be making light of the incident/mocking Lennon ("glances" him on the cheek, "down like a sack of spuds").

I think the fact that we are normalising that he might come to harm as a result of his actions (as per your second question) is quite sad. You said "Of course the Hearts fans were going to take this in good grace and chuckle along with him" but there is quite a big difference between them taking it in good grace and throwing coins at him that could have caused real damage.

You can, obviously, condemn the actions without condoning the reactions but that is to completely miss the point and is utterly defeatist. Lennon's behaviour might not have been impeccable but I fundamentally disagree that he "lit the fuse". It is incredibly simplistic to say so. It is just football and the situation should not be a "powder keg". I am not trying to be politically correct, I love rivalry, but violence is not ok. It is not normal to respond to his behaviour by trying to hurt him. There should not be an excuse for coin throwing and so focusing on Lennon's actions risks condoning the reaction whether or not you intend to in my opinion.

Applause. (clap)

 

[Jason H]

OK, coming back to this as it's been brought back up:

I think we should condemn it unreservedly, not focus on the behaviour of the victim.

But to get to the first bit, it is wholly appropriate to examine the second. I DO condemn the coin-throwing, it should never happen. But then you and I (and most people) are rational human beings who wouldn't consider doing such a thing, even at a Football match where passions run high, heck anyone who has had the misfortune to stand near me at a match will testify that even mild mannered little Jason gets very wound up by the whole thing, as it's a release mechanism from the stresses and strains of everyday life that I let pass me by. Come the final whistle and I go back to being my meek-mannered self. For 90 minutes those 11 blokes in the other colours as well as their officials, plus the blokes (and ladies) in black, are the enemy.

The key is though that there are people who attend Football matches who are not like this. Local derbies especially bring this out in people.

I was genuinely surprised reading this thread that the tone was so critical of Lennon and not the fan, hence my comments.

I have explained the "powder keg" bit already. This happens in all walks of life and leads to unsavoury incidents. In the "Election" thread there was a little while back some discussion over what caused the London Riots in 2011. Another powder keg, with the fuse lit. If you know that there is a fuse in the vicinity, any "rational" being would do what they could to dampen it. Lennon did the opposite, and is therefore culpable even if what happened to him was wholly unacceptable and the perpetrator should never set foot in a stadium again.

Indeed if you go back to your OP you do appear to be making light of the incident/mocking Lennon ("glances" him on the cheek, "down like a sack of spuds").

Not mocking or making light, but re: my comments yes, and I stand by this fully. If you see the video of the incident you'll see the coin caught him a glancing blow. Now, last week there was a commotion outside my house late one night. I looked outside, just in time to see someone land an absolute piledriver on another bloke. The blow was so fierce and landed so true I actually heard the sound of fist on cheek through my double glazed windows. The recipient was unmoved. I once got a blow on the head from a cricket ball that put me in hospital overnight, yet I remained on my feet. If this punch was unable to flatten the recipient, or the blow on the head from a fast bowler didn't flatten me, how on earth is a glancing blow from a coin going to render Lennon (eventually) catatonic? My charge is that he went down in order to make more of the situation. Similarly the goalkeeper throwing himself to the ground after a fan allegedly hit him - the footage doesn't really give credence to any "knockout blow".

Yes, it is "simplistic" to say he "lit the fuse". It is also, sadly, true. We have all, I'm sure, been in situations where the fans have felt it within their rights to be abusive, either verbally or physically. I myself was whacked over the head by a bottle thrown at Eamo and the players after we lost at Farnborough in '04. I was once headbutted after we'd won at Bristol Rovers for the heinous crime of turning right out of the stadium towards my home rather than left with the rest of our fans (oh, and I remained standing!).

There is no excuse for coin throwing, I agree with this 100% (and have maintained this throughout). However, we know it goes on, Football is a mob mentality, your team is your honour and all that stuff. To turn around and goad fans for daring to cheer what was IMO a legitimate goal is borderline (or not, in some opinions) incitement much as someone coming up to you in the pub and telling you your girlfriend is ugly is.

There's a reason why we have such nuances in the law as "diminished responsibility" and whatnot.

 

[Stelios]

I'm with Jason on this. It's not about whether whether sectarianism is ok (it's not), or whether coin throwing is ok if you don't like the guy (it's not). It's about how you act and taking responsibility for your actions. Lennon appears to be a lovely bloke away from the sideline. Warnock too. But some of stuff they get up to during a game is pretty horrific. Personally, I wouldn't throw coins at someone. But if I was a manager I wouldn't goad fans of a rival club and expect them to to ignore me or laugh it off either. Fans have to take responsibility for their actions. Managers have to take responsibility too.

I have some sympathy for Lennon because it's got to the point that whatever he does he will get abuse regardless.

But black players were/are abused simply because they are black. Lennon is abused not just because he is Irish/Catholic. He's also abused because he acts like a complete t***er sometimes and goes out of his way to antagonise/incite people.

Warnock could quite easily claim he gets abuse because the crowd are anti-Yorkshire. Steve Evans could claim the crowd are fat-ist. I think we'd all raise an eyebrow or too if they did.

"Why Always Me?"