Politics Today

[Alistair20000]

Agreed, if only the politicians could frame it properly.

Imagine the scenario (assuming there's an even semi fair media)
Politician "We know as well as anyone just how crap everything is, you can't get a dentist, you have a doctor but can't get an appointment. You need a basic operation and it takes years to be seen. The roads are full of potholes, the trains and buses cost the earth. There's not enough cash to go round. So we've decided to commit to a root & branch reform of all public services aimed at saving your tax money. However, we still don't think that'll be enough to continue funding what you deserve from your country. Our debt payments are very high, due to previous overspending, so here's a long list of things (insert list of stuff depending on party) were going to do to ensure the economy grows and that everyone is able to help out, work and do their bit for our country. We don't want to have to borrow masses more in the short term so we're going to simplify the tax system so everyone pays a fair amount. All personal allowances will be set to 5k a year and remain that way for the foreseeable future. This will pay for the improved services you'll see very quickly. There is also a massive increase in skills training which we will provide for free once you have been in the newly trained role for a year from the accredited training company."

Obviously, I've made this up on the hoof, but if you frame it properly I reckon it'll be fine.

Apologies, for the shit formatting, spelling and grammar I'm on the train!

Far too sensible for the buffoons who govern us and those that aspire to govern us au

 

[Radio Free Skaro]

Well Mr Dalek I don’t read the Daily Mail but I have studied the chart in post #51,195. This tells us that for the first 5 years of New Labour there were tiny budget deficits or surpluses when Conservative economic policies were being followed. Once Prudence was cast aside by The Broon and public spending was increased we had continuing deficits and therefore increased debt to service. Every deficit = more debt. Continuing deficits evidence a structural deficit issue of not paying our way. Bad economics unless the excess spending was spent on genuine investment; which it was not. Governments of all political persuasions are useless in the art of genuine investment.

The chart also shows the horror story of the economic mismanagement of the 1974/79 Labour government.

My point is it was the banking crash that led to to financial crisis not Labour spending.

If Labour overspending was so crazy why did the Tories agree to match Government spending in 2007?

We will match Labour spending plans for three years, say Tories | Conservatives | The Guardian

Tories vow to match Labour spending (telegraph.co.uk)

 

[tavyred]

My point is it was the banking crash that led to to financial crisis not Labour spending.

If Labour overspending was so crazy why did the Tories agree to match Government spending in 2007?

We will match Labour spending plans for three years, say Tories | Conservatives | The Guardian

Tories vow to match Labour spending (telegraph.co.uk)

It would appear that despite the small budget surpluses ending in and around 2001, Labour still upped our public spending from around 35% of GDP to 40% in that time. All those extra billions were borrowed. Remember in that pre GFC period there was no recession or pandemic to deal with, it’s why labour were often criticised for not fixing the roof while the sun shined.

 

[arthur]

It was the sidelining of the Educational blob that enabled the Gove/Cummings combo to make the marked improvements in the English educational system we’ve seen in the last few years, I understand our reading standards are now the best in the western world it was announced this week.

I am far from convinced that there have been "marked improvements in the English educational system". Mental illness amongst teenagers is at unprecedented levels. The wholesale embrace of the militant trans agenda - "if you don't believe a trans woman is a woman then you are hateful and I don't feel safe around you" - suggests a serious dearth of critical thinking amongst this age group. But their reading is better - huzzah!

Gove and Cummings thinking that what worked for them 40 years ago is what's needed to educate and develop young people today constitutes a special kind of arrogance. People who understand child learning and development - academics and teachers in the main - are fully entitled to voice their concerns that this Gradgrind approach might not help children develop into thinking, resilient and responsible members of society. But, horror of horrors, these people are experts and we know what Gove and his NatC friends think of them.

So, in keeping with the current rules of political engagement, rather than enter into informed debate with people you disagree with, it's so much easier to come up with a derogatory label. "The Blob", that'll do, and sits neatly alongside declinist, remaniac and self loather. Given that we are governed by people whose political analysis is this shallow, it's no wonder the country's in the state it is...

 

[Radio Free Skaro]

It would appear that despite the small budget surpluses ending in and around 2001, Labour still upped our public spending from around 35% of GDP to 40% in that time. All those extra billions were borrowed. Remember in that pre GFC period there was no recession or pandemic to deal with, it’s why labour were often criticised for not fixing the roof while the sun shined.

You seem to vearing off on a very interesting diversion. But seem to be avoiding the main points

1) it was not Labour spending that caused the banking crash and financial crisis.

2) the Tories obviously thought that govt spending was at an appropriate level as in 2007 they promised to match Labour spending plans.

 

[tavyred]

I am far from convinced that there have been "marked improvements in the English educational system". Mental illness amongst teenagers is at unprecedented levels. The wholesale embrace of the militant trans agenda - "if you don't believe a trans woman is a woman then you are hateful and I don't feel safe around you" - suggests a serious dearth of critical thinking amongst this age group. But their reading is better - huzzah!

Gove and Cummings thinking that what worked for them 40 years ago is what's needed to educate and develop young people today constitutes a special kind of arrogance. People who understand child learning and development - academics and teachers in the main - are fully entitled to voice their concerns that this Gradgrind approach might not help children develop into thinking, resilient and responsible members of society. But, horror of horrors, these people are experts and we know what Gove and his NatC friends think of them.

So, in keeping with the current rules of political engagement, rather than enter into informed debate with people you disagree with, it's so much easier to come up with a derogatory label. "The Blob", that'll do, and sits neatly alongside declinist, remaniac and self loather. Given that we are governed by people whose political analysis is this shallow, it's no wonder the country's in the state it is...

Thankfully we don’t to rely on your hunches re. the state of education, the steady progress up the PISA rankings is usually the sort of concrete proof of the type you require in discussions like this. From memory the Gove reforms weren’t about taking us back 40 years but were based on the ability of every individual school to take themselves out of the sometimes stupefying constraints of its local authority and go it alone or organise themselves, as a lot schools have done into groups of schools. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems of course, the biggest at the moment being the bugbear all our public services share and that is the recruitment and retention of staff.
I don’t personally don’t recall one political argument over the last few years where Labour were criticising the Tories over the educational standards of our kids, probably because the data would blow those sort of criticisms out of the water.

 

[tavyred]

You seem to vearing off on a very interesting diversion. But seem to be avoiding the main points

1) it was not Labour spending that caused the banking crash and financial crisis.

2) the Tories obviously thought that govt spending was at an appropriate level as in 2007 they promised to match Labour spending plans.

No diversion RFS, merely proffering the point that decisions were made prior to the GFC that made our dealing with its fall out (austerity) more problematic, it wasn’t all new schools and hospitals, it was also a bloated welfare state where millions of our number were lodged semi-permanently on disability benefits and seemingly under no pressure to progress to the world of work.
We can argue, and indeed have argued the toss over the years over the political choices our governments made in the austerity years, but the massive structural (ie. built in) deficit was created by the thirteen years of Labour government no one else, and incidentally although tax receipts did by definition reduce at the time of the GFC recession there was certainly no “collapse” as Art suggests.

On your second rather naive point, no opposition party in normal times, as it was prior to to the GFC in 2008 ever promises to cut public spending prior to a General Election. No doubt as with Labour now they would have tried to convince us that the way they would pay for that public spending would by doing things differently and better.

 

[angelic upstart]

On your second rather naive point, no opposition party in normal times, as it was prior to to the GFC in 2008 ever promises to cut public spending prior to a General Election. No doubt as with Labour now they would have tried to convince us that the way they would pay for that public spending would by doing things differently and better.

I'd suggest it's not naive to expect a political party to tell the truth when they tell us what they want to do with our country. In fact, I'd suggest it was naive to think any differently. Sadly, we've spent the best part of 60 years being gaslit by various governments.

 

[tavyred]

I'd suggest it's not naive to expect a political party to tell the truth when they tell us what they want to do with our country. In fact, I'd suggest it was naive to think any differently. Sadly, we've spent the best part of 60 years being gaslit by various governments.

The Tories couldn’t be truthful in 2007 about the austerity ‘hair shirt’ we had to wear from 2010 onwards because the GFC didn’t happen till 2008 obviously, but if your suggesting that political parties shouldn’t act overtly politically in an attempt to get elected then you are naive.

 

[angelic upstart]

The Tories couldn’t be truthful in 2007 about the austerity ‘hair shirt’ we had to wear from 2010 onwards because the GFC didn’t happen till 2008 obviously, but if your suggesting that political parties shouldn’t act overtly politically in an attempt to get elected then you are naive.

I'm suggesting in general terms, I get things happen where plans have to change.

I'm not naive, because we're all aware it happens. But as a patriot, I want truth from my politicians. I'm not interested in what the party thinks, or wants. I want what's best for Britain. The political "celebrity gossip" is mostly nonsense and it's not needed in my view. I want a decent well run country, not some loud mouth pointlessly complaining about how different it would be if the other side did it. Actions, not words impress me.