Politics Today

[angelic upstart]

Some resonance there.

But it begs the question.

If those feelings are innate why has so much concerted effort been invested in the anti European narrative over the past few decades by large sections of the printed press and a large - but not majority - fringe of the Conservative party? It's certainly ramped up a few notches in my own lived experience since the mid til late 80s.
Why the fear from those quarters of the 'naturally' convinced not being actually convinced?

I didn't really give that any thought during the conversation. But I suspect Brits natural distrust everything. When the EEC started morphing into the EU the papers will pick up on that and magnify it 1000 times over, build the fear and the distrust further. It's always been that way with the papers. I was still playing war against imaginary nazis in the playground in the mid 80s, so despite being trading partners, it's safe to say their was distrust and outright hostility towards numerous European nations that today's younger generations don't really have as they see themselves as more European. But culture-wise they're really not.

 

[Spoonz Red E]

Europe itself has been plagued with nation versus nation wars for centuries right up until just before my lifetime but now those nations seem willing to forge and further cement the community.

I do feel the isolationist mentality here.
Cultural yes but I'm not sure it's natural.

There's a lot of reinforcement applied to maintain it (Britannia rule the waves, White cliffs of Dover, British Empire hangover, Left to stand 'alone' against the Nazis, etc.).
And now of course, 'Control our borders' as opposed to free movement.

Even Mr 'Get Brexit Done' had two opposing journalistic essays prepared before deciding to add to the 'let's distrust the Europeans' heft.

 

[angelic upstart]

You're not sure it's natural, culturally? That intrigues me. We drive on the left, we use a weird hybrid imperial/metric system, we are terrible at learning new languages. I could go on. But I'm boring myself

 

[Phil Sayers]

We mock the American concept of 'American exceptionalism' but the truth of the matter is that we have our own concept of 'British exceptionalism' which, although we would never be so vulgar as to describe it as such, is a powerful, arrogant, determinative idea.

 

[IndoMike]

We mock the American concept of 'American exceptionalism' but the truth of the matter is that we have our own concept of 'British exceptionalism' which, although we would never be so vulgar as to describe it as such, is a powerful, arrogant, determinative idea.

Now with that you have hit the nail on t he e head, but as matter of politeness I will elaborate in my answer to the upstart.

 

[IndoMike]

Oddly enough, a friend and I discussed this last night. I'd just like to say we're training for a 100km walk in a few months so literally spend hours dribbling nonsense, I rarely talk politics in the real world. Anyway we both agreed that we're British and a different being from mainland Europe, we're an island race, we don't feel European, nor have we ever. We have a totally different culture to most of Europe in almost every way. Now you could say this about France (as an example), but France has neighbours and those that live by the border will visit friends and family just a few miles away in a different country. We don't have that in the same way.

It's easy to blame xenophobia, or whatever else on things like Brexit, but we were never fully into the EU in the first place. Nor were we likely to be anytime soon. Nothing to do with the papers, or being right wing, or hating immigration, we just ain't European in the traditional sense.

Obviously great minds think alike.
My take on this is also a simplification and is a continuation of what Phil Sayers said.
We do really think we are superior to all others. Why? I think it's because in the past Britain really did rule the waves. Added to that there is the idea that we saved Europe from Nazi tyranny. We are one of the few countries that has derogatory names for other Europeans, for black people, for Asians : This is all part of the superiority complex that many Brits have, or should I say English.
So, due to historical "successes" and becoming "masters" of the colonies, we still think we're the tops.

 

[angelic upstart]

Obviously great minds think alike.
My take on this is also a simplification and is a continuation of what Phil Sayers said.
We do really think we are superior to all others. Why? I think it's because in the past Britain really did rule the waves. Added to that there is the idea that we saved Europe from Nazi tyranny. We are one of the few countries that has derogatory names for other Europeans, for black people, for Asians : This is all part of the superiority complex that many Brits have, or should I say English.
So, due to historical "successes" and becoming "masters" of the colonies, we still think we're the tops.

There's probably an element of that although it's difficult to gauge that in the same degree (in my humble) certainly most of the people I know don't consider themselves superior outwardly. Inwardly, there may be though.
In my limited knowledge, racism is mostly worse on the continent (see another everyday thing that separates us from considering ourselves European) but there's definitely a two world wars, one world cup mentality in some people.

 

[angelic upstart]

We mock the American concept of 'American exceptionalism' but the truth of the matter is that we have our own concept of 'British exceptionalism' which, although we would never be so vulgar as to describe it as such, is a powerful, arrogant, determinative idea.

You clearly hang about with people far cleverer than myself and my walking companion.

Not a difficult thing, mind you.

 

[DB9]

Here in the UK we've been dripped fed ludicrous stories about the EU for decades, All starts with stupid things like banning "Bendy Banana's" then upping the stakes like getting rid of our EU veto, Handing over our Nuclear Deterrent to the EU, We were going to be forced to adopt the Euro, Disbanding NATO for a EU Army etc.

It went into feverpitch with the run up to the 2016 ref in certain sections of the media with just bared faced lies but once out there and tbh the narrative was on the leave side, debunking these stories was really hard to do.

Below are a list of stories that we not true and had corrections, This was shown in 2016 and by a Pro-EU fact checking website but all the stories had to be corrected because they were either misleading or untrue, I don't doubt certain people will dismiss these as rubbish but that is where we are politcally.

Inaccurate newspaper stories misled the British public when they voted 'Leave' says founder of pro-EU fact-checking website

The founder of a pro-Remain fact-checking website has claimed that a series of “significantly misleading” articles misled the British public when they voted to leave the EU last week. Hugo Dixon is a columnist for Reuters and founder of the Breaking Views business website. He also claimed that...

pressgazette.co.uk

Unfortunatly since 2016 we are now in a state where our Government can say bared faced lies and if you question them you will get their foot soldiers in the media backing up these lies like saying "Don't look over there, Look over here where we'll get you outraged".

 

[Spoonz Red E]

You're not sure it's natural, culturally? That intrigues me. We drive on the left, we use a weird hybrid imperial/metric system, we are terrible at learning new languages. I could go on. But I'm boring myself

I simply draw a distinction between what is cultural and what is natural.

Granted, there are lots of cultural triggers and reinforcements that shape us but labelling the product of those as our natural selves doesn't ring true to me and has been openly manipulated throughout history.

That's why repeatedly we see people killing each other based on seeming 'natural' belief systems developed due to the fact that they live a few miles either side of a created border.

As we see again now with Ukraine /Russia where you have the homeland defense narrative (territorial and cultural) bolstered by the 'othering' of the enemy (false natural).