Politics Today

[tavyred]

You won't of course, because you've drunk all the Conservative cool aid. If you hadn't told us how you were a trade union man and former Labour voter, I'd have assumed from your posts that you were a lifelong card-carrying Tory, such is the depth of your unquestioning devotion.

If your talking about my personal devotion to a political cause in the last 5 years or so, it wouldn’t be to a particular political party but rather to the political imperative of the U.K. leaving to the EU.
I was happy to vote Labour in 2017 to get that done, but as with a few other hundreds of thousands of voters, I got duped. Who knew that when Corbyn said he wanted the “benefits of the CU and the SM” he actually meant we wouldn’t actually ever leave those particular facets of the EU’s apparatus and thus no version of Brexit from TM’s government would ever be acceptable.
To suggest as you are 4 years later that Labour’s position on Brexit was perfectly clear is a distortion of the truth and to quote you, I don’t know what to say to you.
The sole reason Labour is getting its ar*e handed to itself on a plate at elections is because thousands of people like me saw through the deceit and are minded to punish Labour at the ballot till further notice.
The next opportunity for me to get the Brexit I voted for was in December 2019, where the people you say had delayed Brexit just as much Labour, had taken over from the failed TM government and promised to make leaving the EU their priority. Two months later we were out. Even if Boris et al did delay TM’s version of Brexit, I’m inclined to give them credit now as they actually got it done as promised. BTW does the parliamentary math back up your claim that TM’s deal would’ve passed with Tory rebel support?
So away with your guff about me being akin to a lifelong card carrying Tory, I was (and still am) a democrat who wanted my winning vote in 2016 to mean something in a democracy. If that means I have to vote Tory then so be it.

 

[Alistair20000]

The same 'unquestioning devotion' to this Tory government is also to be found in any Hartlepool working man's club, and elsewhere.

Unquestioning devotion to Alexander Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and the public school, Oxbridge set, who throughout history have only ever looked out for their own, beggars belief. The pledge by proven liars to 'level-up' in the aftermath of a pandemic, and Brexit, is sufficent to garner support. They cling onto this Tory party like a cat to curtains, it's all so desperately sad.

Why do they cling to the Tory party Elgers ?

This is the interesting question

 

[tavyred]

Why do they cling to the Tory party Elgers ?

This is the interesting question

Elgy won’t go there Al, that would involve some uncomfortable truths an unquestioning devotee of the Labour Party won’t want to contemplate.

 

[Alistair20000]

Elgy won’t go there Al, that would involve some uncomfortable truths an unquestioning devotee of the Labour Party won’t want to contemplate.

Indeed but it would be good to hear from him on this question.

I don’t think Elgy would run the sneering Lady Nugee type leftie argument that the Tory voters in the Red Wall seats are just too stupid to know better

 

[Hermann]

If your talking about my personal devotion to a political cause in the last 5 years or so, it wouldn’t be to a particular political party but rather to the political imperative of the U.K. leaving to the EU.
I was happy to vote Labour in 2017 to get that done, but as with a few other hundreds of thousands of voters, I got duped. Who knew that when Corbyn said he wanted the “benefits of the CU and the SM” he actually meant we wouldn’t actually ever leave those particular facets of the EU’s apparatus and thus no version of Brexit from TM’s government would ever be acceptable.
To suggest as you are 4 years later that Labour’s position on Brexit was perfectly clear is a distortion of the truth and to quote you, I don’t know what to say to you.
The sole reason Labour is getting its ar*e handed to itself on a plate at elections is because thousands of people like me saw through the deceit and are minded to punish Labour at the ballot till further notice.
The next opportunity for me to get the Brexit I voted for was in December 2019, where the people you say had delayed Brexit just as much Labour, had taken over from the failed TM government and promised to make leaving the EU their priority. Two months later we were out. Even if Boris et al did delay TM’s version of Brexit, I’m inclined to give them credit now as they actually got it done as promised. BTW does the parliamentary math back up your claim that TM’s deal would’ve passed with Tory rebel support?
So away with your guff about me being akin to a lifelong card carrying Tory, I was (and still am) a democrat who wanted my winning vote in 2016 to mean something in a democracy. If that means I have to vote Tory then so be it.

Labour's position was pretty clear to me. In 2017 they said they'd oppose a brexit based on the Conservative white paper, that's what they did. In 2019 they supported a second referendum. Don't see why any of that would cause confusion.

Johnson et al by contrast were elected in 2017 to support a brexit based on the white paper, and they didn't.

It's not guff from where I'm sitting. Your refusal to accept any criticism of the Conservatives, whether it pertains to brexit or not, strikes me as someone who's long nailed his colours to the blue rosette.

 

[tavyred]

It's not guff from where I'm sitting. Your refusal to accept any criticism of the Conservatives, whether it pertains to brexit or not, strikes me as someone who's long nailed his colours to the blue rosette.

Fair enough, you think I’m lying about my voting habits. There’s not a lot more to be discussed if you think I’m posting from a dishonest position.

 

[Hermann]

Fair enough, you think I’m lying about my voting habits. There’s not a lot more to be discussed if you think I’m posting from a dishonest position.

I don't think you're lying. The internet isolates and emphasises certain things, particularly in politics. No nuance. You probably think I'm a card-carrying Labour supporter, when in reality I've not voted for them since the 2005 GE (incidentally the last time I voted in Exeter).

I do think you're a human being, and human beings are naturally tribal. You've made the decision to join the Conservative tribe (as some other former Labour voters have - albeit, not as many as people often imply) and you will brook no criticism of that decision. They're your tribe, so they must be right.

It's basic psychology. You see the same in football all over the world. My team is my tribe, and they must therefore be right. There is no way one of my team's players would foul someone, therefore the referee must be biased.

It speaks to both the damage done by Corbyn and the difficulty of the task facing Labour now. It takes a lot to make someone change their tribe, and probably more difficult to get them to change it back.

 

[Hermann]

Why do they cling to the Tory party Elgers ?

This is the interesting question

See my answer above on tribalism for why they cling. As to why they changed tribes in the first place, well the research shows the top three reasons were brexit, Corbyn and a distrust of Labour on the economy.

 

[IndoMike]

See my answer above on tribalism for why they cling. As to why they changed tribes in the first place, well the research shows the top three reasons were brexit, Corbyn and a distrust of Labour on the economy.

From the London Economic:
"Boris Johnson told the Confederation of British Industry that, unlike Labour, the Tories “believe emphatically in fiscal prudence”. Mainstream media tend to agree. Channel 4, for instance, has a fact-checking page for the claims of both parties. The results lean towards economic Conservatism. The public appears to agree, too, with a majority of voters “trusting” the Tories more than Labour with their money.
But this unnuanced picture is mostly establishment propaganda".

Another fallacy that the Tories have skilfully perpetuated.... Read the article for the details..

 

[angelic upstart]

Fair enough, you think I’m lying about my voting habits. There’s not a lot more to be discussed if you think I’m posting from a dishonest position.

Not that my opinion counts for shit, but Tavy has almost always been consistent in his viewpoint. He’s mentioned recently and many times previously that he voted for labour in 2017. I’ve no reason whatsoever to disbelieve him.

It’s the fuckers like me, that change their mind every 5/6 months when I think about things from different viewpoints that look hypocritical.