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DB9

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I agree to a point DB, the problem is that you have also to take into account recent history. Some public sector workers have had reasonable pay rises over the last few years (to which others will argue is 'catch up for austerity') and others have not. There is also the unpriced fact that, like or not, job security in the pubic sector is significantly greater. The pay may (I stress may) be less, but very few PSE's were furloughed, job security is still high and pensions are at the generous end.

As for the private sector, they will pay what they can afford. Some businesses (big and small) have boomed - supermarkets and DIY chains obviously, but also producers and suppliers selling essential services, medical and sanitisation supplies, Curry's and PC World selling all those 'home office' essentials. There's quite a list. I suspect some of the management at these places will not be going hungry, but then they probably have worked bleedin' hard throughout.
I can also see this point but in the private sector who've done well, Will they really reward those on the "Shop Floor" with a decent pay rise or will the upper management and shareholders just get bigger dividends?
 

tavyred

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No, you're probably right. It has always struck me as a bit odd how populist leaders demonstrably loathe or find distasteful their core supporters and spend as little time as possible associating with them . Think Farage and his March for Brexit, Trump and his March to the Capitol. The well documented disdain that leading Tories have for their new voters is all of piece with that. Still there's nothing I can do about but look on from the sidelines and enjoy your protestations that trusting that these appalling people care about their supporters is the right thing to do.
Any chance you could shine your spotlight of inquiry on perhaps why Labour is failing to keep hold of its traditional vote Art. Unless of course your entire argument is that the working class are being duped into voting Tory. If that’s the case then you’re simply mirroring the Labour Party and its attitude to ordinary voters, if only the working class were clever enough to vote Labour they say.
 

arthur

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Any chance you could shine your spotlight of inquiry on perhaps why Labour is failing to keep hold of its traditional vote Art. Unless of course your entire argument is that the working class are being duped into voting Tory. If that’s the case then you’re simply mirroring the Labour Party and its attitude to ordinary voters, if only the working class were clever enough to vote Labour they say.
I am not in the habit of describing people I disagree with as duped (or thick or racist for that matter) so please give up trying to pin that on me.

The answer to your question is that Tories have successfully captured the imagination of "ordinary" voters (am I not ordinary btw?) and Labour haven't.

That is the situation at the moment and is the result of a very specific set of unusual circumstances. Crowing about it may prove premature...
 

tavyred

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I am not in the habit of describing people I disagree with as duped (or thick or racist for that matter) so please give up trying to pin that on me.

The answer to your question is that Tories have successfully captured the imagination of "ordinary" voters (am I not ordinary btw?) and Labour haven't.

That is the situation at the moment and is the result of a very specific set of unusual circumstances. Crowing about it may prove premature...
Forgive me, but your skirting around the question. You say that people are not being duped, but instead are having their imaginations captured. Despite the perceived differences in those scenarios you seem to be suggesting you and others are clever enough to see through the Tories but others aren’t. Why aren’t other people just like you looking at what the parties are offering and just making different choices to you?
 

arthur

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Forgive me, but your skirting around the question. You say that people are not being duped, but instead are having their imaginations captured. Despite the perceived differences in those scenarios you seem to be suggesting you and others are clever enough to see through the Tories but others aren’t. Why aren’t other people just like you looking at what the parties are offering and just making different choices to you?
Ffs give it a rest. I've said the Tories are doing a good job at appealing to people and Labour aren't. This is for a number of reasons, none of them to do with whether voters are clever or stupid. People make different choices from other people for hundreds of different reasons and always have done.
 

DB9

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Not sure if this is politics but fair play to Jim Bowen AKA Pope Francis for visiting Iraq, Not only a lawless place but during this pandemic, He's visiting areas once held by ISIS, I know he'll have shed loads of security but its still a pretty brave move.
 

Alistair20000

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I don’t think the SNP has acknowledged that particular Union dividend yet.
The SNP acknowledges no benefits of the Union.

The loathsome Sturgeon has played a blinder in trashing the Union and pouring bucket loads of hatred over the English. At the same time holding out her hand for more money which we have been daft enough to pay over. No wonder the SNP has been so successful in elections.
 

arthur

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Excellent article by the wonderful Lucy Kellaway in the FT this weekend (no paywall for some reason). Particularly the second half:

When I started out as a teacher, I thought it was my job to inspire. I wanted to teach my students about the real economy and real businesses. I wanted to prepare them for the world by telling them about it and interesting them in it.

Yet about a year ago, I stopped all that. The penny dropped: my view of education was at odds with the prevailing one. The point of education as currently configured is as a signalling device to universities and employers — students with the right exam scores are allowed on to the next phase of life. The children need the qualifications not to understand the world, but to make their way in it.

Until the crisis, I had more or less made peace with the idea that my job was to help students pass exams, and slip in a bit of extra fun when time allowed. Two lockdowns mean that time does not allow. Ever. There is not a free second to do anything other than teach the sodding curriculum. And seen from these close quarters, studying the exam does not provide much in the way of education.

When I go back to school next week, I will have no choice but to buckle down and teach GCSE economics exactly as the OCR exam board tells me to. I will obediently tell pupils that there are advantages and disadvantages to countries of rising productivity — and that one of the disadvantages is that if one country increases its productivity then others might follow suit and end up overtaking it.

It pains me to have to teach such bilge. I despise the limited way of thinking that says you need two advantages and two disadvantages to everything and you must structure every six-mark answer in the same way. It is boring, stupid and bears no relation to the economy.


Doubly frustrating in that the skill that employers value above all others is the ability to learn, yet this is the last thing our wonderful curriculum teaches its unfortunate consumers. IMHO this is also a root cause of the cancel/instant disapproval culture so prevalent among the young...
 

IndoMike

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I am not in the habit of describing people I disagree with as duped (or thick or racist for that matter) so please give up trying to pin that on me.

The answer to your question is that Tories have successfully captured the imagination of "ordinary" voters (am I not ordinary btw?) and Labour haven't.

That is the situation at the moment and is the result of a very specific set of unusual circumstances. Crowing about it may prove premature...
You call people racist when they make racist comments. I don't see the connection with what you are trying to say..
 

arthur

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You call people racist when they make racist comments. I don't see the connection with what you are trying to say..
I am referring to the Brexiter tradition of insisting that Remainers and their liberal elite ilk dismiss their opponents as thick racist dupes. This is a myth that reinforces the well cultivated victim status but is only seldom found in reality. It is certainly not something I have done - as I have stated on many occasions you are unlikely to change people's minds by gratuitously insulting them.
 
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