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arthur

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They won’t if they win the next election.
They won't win the next election if by win you mean an overall majority. Although Blair did win England in 1997.

They'd be idiots not to back some form of PR - there is an anti Tory majority in this country, though you wouldn't know it looking at the election results. Thatcher's vote share was highest in 1979, it declined at every election thereafter.
 

arthur

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I think that's a bit harsh. Swinson, for all her faults, increased the Dems share of the vote by quite a bit.
Sorry, I disagree. Swinson was far and away the worst leader the Lib Dems have had in my lifetime. She increased the vote share because memories of the coalition were fading and the electorate had come to despise Corbyn with a passion, so those who were prepared to give him a chance in 2017 (and vote tactically to reduce the size of May's likely thumping majority) switched to the Lib Dems in 2019.

She was politically inept and suffered from delusions of grandeur - "all the Remainers will vote for us because Corbyn's so awful and I'll be Prime Minister". She and Corbyn were the midwives of Brexit - Johnson's WA had just past its second reading and could have been amended in all sorts of constructive ways (including asking The People if they liked it or not - very undemocratic apparently), but she believed all her own hype, set Johnson free and lost her seat into the bargain. In the process she ensured the hardest of Brexits while at the same time almost totally destroying her own party. What a triumph...
 

RedPaul

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Agree with all this Arthur although my original LD 'rant' was at their failure to move on since Swinson, not her per se.

The one thing she did do was save us from Corbyn being PM. Had she gone along with it, with him leading some sort of "GNU" then it might have happened. Who knows what chaos would have then ensued and I'm not sure that once in, Corbyn would have stepped aside and called an election 6 months down the line.

Instead we have another form of chaos, a no deal vaccinated form of chaos!
 

arthur

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Lord Kinnock said: “If Labour supports the ‘deal’, all our future justified criticisms will be rebuffed by ‘but you voted for this!’ and, because it will be true, it will be lethal.”

Absolutely
 

RedPaul

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I've an idea. Why not put 'the deal' to the people given that outside of the Gov payroll vote, only about 150 MPs might vote for it. Just check they are sure now they can see the wood for the trees.

Mind you it all looks ever more academic as Macron seems determined to torpedo it, unless it really is a final bit of posturing.
 

tavyred

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Lord Kinnock said: “If Labour supports the ‘deal’, all our future justified criticisms will be rebuffed by ‘but you voted for this!’ and, because it will be true, it will be lethal.”

Absolutely
Like I suggested a few pages back, Labour’s future will mirror the Tories past 30 years, but it will be for the opposite reasons of course. Just as the Tories periodically tore themselves apart over Europe, Labour seem destined to have a significant rump of its membership that will yearn for a return to the EU fold, and as we are already seeing with the debate on Labour’s stance on ‘the deal’ it’s causing divisions.
IMO it’s a terrible look electorally to constantly seek to distance Labour from the country’s choice to leave the EU and was a significant factor in Labour’s shellacking in the last GE. Starmer’s alleged position is the right one, if Brexit is a complete disaster (it won’t be IMO) then as you quite rightly suggest people will know precisely who is to blame and it won’t be the Labour Party. Voting for the deal as the opposition will soon be forgotten in the undoubted recriminations that will follow. Labour will not regain the red wall with Lord Kinnock’s policy of “I told you so, you mugs” I’m afraid.
 

tavyred

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I've an idea. Why not put 'the deal' to the people given that outside of the Gov payroll vote, only about 150 MPs might vote for it. Just check they are sure now they can see the wood for the trees.

Mind you it all looks ever more academic as Macron seems determined to torpedo it, unless it really is a final bit of posturing.
No more referenda required RP, the current Government has all the democratic legitimacy it needs.

Apparently the Macron last minute interjection was just the 10 years of unfettered EU access to U.K. waters.
 

RedPaul

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No more referenda required RP, the current Government has all the democratic legitimacy it needs.

Apparently the Macron last minute interjection was just the 10 years of unfettered EU access to U.K. waters.
I was being tongue in cheek (as no doubt you guessed) but until we see 'the deal', we don't know what legitimacy it has
I think claiming there is democratic legitimacy for "no deal" is a stretch.

Macron's 10 years was to enable him to sign up to the rest of it. When he doesn't get his 10 years, then what?
 
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