Moaning & Groaning: Perspective.

Red Bill

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Your opinion is based on a Devon Live report, me personally I give more credence to the figure quoted in the official minutes referred to, but each to his own . . . !
I dont think I have ever listened to Devon live. Were you on it having a good moan about Matt?😊
I simply put your criticism of the manager together with your detailed questions about how decisions (such as sacking a manager) were taken etc. I may have made 5, I get that way with num3ers.
Dont believe anything I read??😲 Ah, it's all a conspiracy now? 😄
Oh no, here we go again! I thought this was a sensible discussion, but it looks like we're heading for a slanging match yet again!

I may not agree with ExmouthMart and feel he has an over simplistic view of business, and I don't for one minute believe the supposedly quoted figure for the scoreboard, but his opinions are perfectly valid and reasonably argued.
Can't we just for once behave like adults and not descend into snidey little digs at each other, because no matter how humorously presented, we know their aim and we know the result.
 

geoffwp

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There is nothing in either of those quoted posts that I can find the slightest bit 'slanging' Bill. However, I know I'm probably a bit common so find it difficult to meet the standards set by some of my more illustrious fellow fans. My sincere apologies from down in the gutter.
 

ExmouthMart

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Oh no, here we go again! I thought this was a sensible discussion, but it looks like we're heading for a slanging match yet again!

I may not agree with ExmouthMart and feel he has an over simplistic view of business, and I don't for one minute believe the supposedly quoted figure for the scoreboard, but his opinions are perfectly valid and reasonably argued.
Can't we just for once behave like adults and not descend into snidey little digs at each other, because no matter how humorously presented, we know their aim and we know the result.
I freely admit to being not that smart but when people are responsible for spending other people’s money I expect crystal clear transparency in everything upto what individuals earn. We the supporters are expected to keep buying season tickets, replica shirts etc. which no one objects to obviously, but when this money has been partly used to pay for something costing a large sum of money and only told it’s what you want without any information whats so ever regarding the exact costs etc. and how the expenditure impacts now and in the future I get suspicious about motives.
People need to keep their guard up all the time and people who put themselves forward in whatever capacity for whichever board need to consistently show and justify their actions to show the rest of us simple souls that our beloved football club is not going to fail.Our football club continually struggles for money, partly because of the ownership model, so any risky big expenditure should be fully explained from the off not mixed in with pitch improvement announcements which no one would argue needs to be addressed before a vanity project.
 

Legohead

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I freely admit to being not that smart but when people are responsible for spending other people’s money I expect crystal clear transparency in everything upto what individuals earn. We the supporters are expected to keep buying season tickets, replica shirts etc. which no one objects to obviously, but when this money has been partly used to pay for something costing a large sum of money and only told it’s what you want without any information whats so ever regarding the exact costs etc. and how the expenditure impacts now and in the future I get suspicious about motives.
People need to keep their guard up all the time and people who put themselves forward in whatever capacity for whichever board need to consistently show and justify their actions to show the rest of us simple souls that our beloved football club is not going to fail.Our football club continually struggles for money, partly because of the ownership model, so any risky big expenditure should be fully explained from the off not mixed in with pitch improvement announcements which no one would argue needs to be addressed before a vanity project.
Absolutely spot on and i find it truly bizarre that anyone would disagree. Although they are entitled to obviously. ;)
 

Red Bill

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There is nothing in either of those quoted posts that I can find the slightest bit 'slanging' Bill. However, I know I'm probably a bit common so find it difficult to meet the standards set by some of my more illustrious fellow fans. My sincere apologies from down in the gutter.
Nice attempt at deflection Geoff! But by saying "Were you on it having a good moan about Matt Taylor" you are attempting to belittle ExmouthMart and present him as just a moaner to be ignored
I freely admit to being not that smart but when people are responsible for spending other people’s money I expect crystal clear transparency in everything upto what individuals earn. We the supporters are expected to keep buying season tickets, replica shirts etc. which no one objects to obviously, but when this money has been partly used to pay for something costing a large sum of money and only told it’s what you want without any information whats so ever regarding the exact costs etc. and how the expenditure impacts now and in the future I get suspicious about motives.
People need to keep their guard up all the time and people who put themselves forward in whatever capacity for whichever board need to consistently show and justify their actions to show the rest of us simple souls that our beloved football club is not going to fail.Our football club continually struggles for money, partly because of the ownership model, so any risky big expenditure should be fully explained from the off not mixed in with pitch improvement announcements which no one would argue needs to be addressed before a vanity project.
That's a lovely idealistic utopian idea of the status and rights of football fans. And how I wish it were true! The harsh reality is that football clubs are companies, they haven't actually been clubs for God knows how long (i'm sure the historians will fill you in), these companies are in the entertainment industry, their product is spectator sport and fans are the customers. No matter how much emotional input you may have invested, when it comes down to the brass tacks of it, that's all we are and we have no more right to scrutinise how it spends it money than you do over any other business you patronise. This may be an unbearable truth but that's how business works in capitalist systems. It's not something I personally support, in fact i'd like to utterly destroy it, but it is the truth no matter how unpalatable.

At City we are lucky, we have the Trust and through membership of that we collectively own the club. This means we are able to scrutinise the directors of the business we own, however we do this through the election of an executive. Unfortunately via representative democracy. Meaning our only power is to put a cross next to a random stranger once in a fixed period, to be a part of a small body that make decisions and act on our behalf. This may not be my idea of democracy, in fact I think it's a complete sham, but it is recognised and supported as a system of government by the vast majority of people throughout the world. Once the executive is formed we simply have to hope they do a good job. We can of course remove them by not voting for them come re-election or even standing for election ourselves, but that is the limit of our power once we have abdicated it through voting. Again not a system I agree with but one that pretty much every elected body throughout the world accepts as normal and practices.

As Trust members we can of course put questions to the board, we can ask for example of f they can assure us that full consideration and due diligence was undertaken in particular situations, or what steps were taken. You can go to a Trust meeting and debate the subject with the Trustees. In certain circumstances you can trigger a Special General Meeting where the subject can be debated by the membership, resolutions passed resulting in instructions to the club board. But as with all representative democracy, most of the time you place your vote and trust to luck!
Of course if you're not an owner, then you're merely a customer and have no real right to any information on the machinations of the company. In fact it will be just like if the club was in private ownership.
Sucks doesn't it!!!
 
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IndoMike

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Nice attempt at deflection Geoff! But by saying "Were you on it having a good moan about Matt Taylor" you are attempting to belittle ExmouthMart and present him as just a moaner to be ignored
That's a lovely idealistic utopian idea of the status and rights of football fans. And how I wish it were true! The harsh reality is that football clubs are companies, they haven't actually been clubs for God knows how long (i'm sure the historians will fill you in), these companies are in the entertainment industry, their product is spectator sport and fans are the customers. No matter how much emotional input you may have invested, when it comes down to the brass tacks of it, that's all we are and we have no more right to scrutinise how it spends it money than you do over any other business you patronise. This may be an unbearable truth but that's how business works in capitalist systems. It's not something I personally support, in fact i'd like to utterly destroy it, but it is the truth no matter how unpalatable.

At City we are lucky, we have the Trust and through membership of that we collectively own the club. This means we are able to scrutinise the directors of the business we own, however we do this through the election of an executive. Unfortunately via representative democracy. Meaning our only power is to put a cross next to a random stranger once in a fixed period, to be a part of a small body that make decisions and act on our behalf. This may not be my idea of democracy, in fact I think it's a complete sham, but it is recognised and supported as a system of government by the vast majority of people throughout the world. Once the executive is formed we simply have to hope they do a good job. We can of course remove them by not voting for them come re-election or even standing for election ourselves, but that is the limit of our power once we have abdicated it through voting. Again not a system I agree with but one that pretty much every elected body throughout the world accepts as normal and practices.

As Trust members we can of course put questions to the board, we can ask for example of f they can assure us that full consideration and due diligence was undertaken in particular situations, or what steps were taken. You can go to a Trust meeting and debate the subject with the Trustees. In certain circumstances you can trigger a Special General Meeting where the subject can be debated by the membership, resolutions passed resulting in instructions to the club board. But as with all representative democracy, most of the time you place your vote and trust to luck!
Of course if you're not an owner, then you're merely a customer and have no real right to any information on the machinations of the company. In fact it will be just like if the club was in private ownership.
Sucks doesn't it!!!
You're wrong about one thing, Bill. Companies are scrutinized by their shareholders and their stakeholders. For example, many companies have been forced to change their modus operandi due to consumer pressure. People can vote with their feet or their wallet too if they're not happy. Like it or not, there have been many campaigns such as questioning the origin of goods, environmental concerns et al which have obligated companies to change. So the man /woman in the street as a collective have a lot of influence.
 

geoffwp

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Well of course, you are always right Bill so I will of course try harder to learn from the master.
Now, what was the thread title....um...oh, 'Moaning and groaning'. Hmmm.
 

geoffwp

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So, ExmouthMart, I hope you now carefully study Bill's lesson as you will be required to sit the Trust members advanced exam on Monday . Bill has taken great care over the presentation of his thesis and the facts therein. Failure on your part to pass the exam will, I'm afraid, have dire consequences for your future as a trust member. I suggest you begin revising this evening.
 

Red Bill

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Well of course, you are always right Bill so I will of course try harder to learn from the master.
Now, what was the thread title....um...oh, 'Moaning and groaning'. Hmmm.
And as if to illustrate my point, there you go again! Maybe one day you'll actually make a point Geoff, something that adds to a debate, gives us something to think about, or argue against. Tell why you agree or disagree, or why you think someone's right or wrong. But in all honesty I can't ever remember you doing that. I know you're not stupid so I guess you must either be too lazy or too condescending to bother.
You could take a lesson from ExmouthMart instead of trying to deflect away. He and I clearly have different opinions on this matter but everyone of his posts he's made a point and has elaborated to explain his thinking, he's given us something to think about, as I have also tried, but you............well there's nothing is there!!!
 
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