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Politics Today

arthur

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Country has had 2 opportunities since to vote in a way that shows it made a massive collective mistake, and hasn't on either occasion.

You don't like it, I don't like it, but leaving the EU is what people voted for directly once and indirectly twice in the space of 3 1/2 yrs.
You are right of course. What I really don't like is that neither of these choices about our relationship with the EU were made with very much, if any, consideration of the advantages and drawbacks of EU membership.

The referendum was an expression of anger and resentment against the political class. The GE was about which of two deeply flawed politicians was the less objectionable.

My point is that there has not been a well informed debate and decision taken about EU membership. There has been a lot of emotive and often dishonest noise, followed by the answering of a different question to the one asked about the EU. Our democracy and its out of date and deeply inadequate processes are responsible for an act of national self harm that has become impossible to prevent.
 

RedPaul

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You are right of course. What I really don't like is that neither of these choices about our relationship with the EU were made with very much, if any, consideration of the advantages and drawbacks of EU membership.

The referendum was an expression of anger and resentment against the political class. The GE was about which of two deeply flawed politicians was the less objectionable.

My point is that there has not been a well informed debate and decision taken about EU membership. There has been a lot of emotive and often dishonest noise, followed by the answering of a different question to the one asked about the EU. Our democracy and its out of date and deeply inadequate processes are responsible for an act of national self harm that has become impossible to prevent.
I'm not sold on the reason for the referendum result. To be brutal, the reason why 'leave' won, is about 75% of the over 60's voted but only 50% of the under 35's

The fact that there was no clear explanation of what Brexit meant was an open goal for leave - it meant that it could mean whatever they wanted on any one day

There should have been a confirmatory referendum on the actual WA, as one Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson proposed at one point!
 

IndoMike

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I'm not sold on the reason for the referendum result. To be brutal, the reason why 'leave' won, is about 75% of the over 60's voted but only 50% of the under 35's

The fact that there was no clear explanation of what Brexit meant was an open goal for leave - it meant that it could mean whatever they wanted on any one day

There should have been a confirmatory referendum on the actual WA, as one Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson proposed at one point!
I kind of agree with most of that.
The voters were told how awful being a member of the EU was but were not told in any way at all what the vision for New UK was, and of course no details.

Honestly I'm not even convinced that Johnson et al had any kind of vision. In effect, they had a vague view of what they didn't want but no idea what they actually wanted - what kind of society they wanted to build ..

Of course, the mere fact that Johnson changed his mind from Remain to Leave just a few months before the referendum makes one suspicious that he was planning a silent coup d'etat against May, no doubt with Cummings pushing him strongly in that direction.

As many of us predicted, Johnson was dying to become PM without ever having the qualities to fulfill the role, as we are now seeing. An empty vessel full of bluff and bs.
 

tavyred

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The brutal truth for me about the referendum result was that every person entitled to vote could’ve voted and the individual motivations for the way people voted were wide ranging and complex. If the younger element were not motivated enough to vote that says to me that they didn’t care enough about the UK’s continued membership of the EU and were quite happy to abrogate the decision to those who were interested enough to vote.
 

DB9

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The point being made was about Remainers like DB enabling the Johnson cabal since the Referendum. DB & co have been sold the same pup as the Brexiters - deeply dispiriting :(
I have not enabled anything Elgin, I voted to remain, One vote but not enough voted to remain either, As pointed out by RD, The younger voters who were very mouthy afterwards should of got their collective arses out of bed and voted then this would have never happened, The vote was that tight. Since 2016 the HOC's was utter ***** and could not agree on any solution, We had two elections in 2017 & 2019 and still not enough people voted to change the course and in the end we are now staring down the barrel of a no deal come 31st December. I was not sold a pup, Certainly not the same as the leavers, I did my bit by voting to remain and still believe we'd be better off staying in but i was in the minority at that time and leave won and now i have no power to change that result. The majority of the people who voted, Voted leave, As for the ones who didn't vote, I'm sorry but you have no right to moan, You had the choice to vote but you chose not to and again this is where we ended up.

The only ones to blame for this situation going back to 2016 are the remain campaign, It was their job to convince us to stay but not enough believed them and here we are. We live in a democracy, Yes I'm banging on about that again! But to me its important in a democracy you vote freely and accept the result, Even if it doesn't go your way, As often said "As a politician after a GE, You never blame the people on how they voted, You respect that result"
 

IndoMike

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Don't know what to make of this story re IDS. He supported the w/a, voted for it not to be debated in the HoE, and now says it's an awful deal within which the small print commits the UK to finance certain loans to EU countries. He apparently is livid. Eh?

 

RedPaul

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Don't know what to make of this story re IDS. He supported the w/a, voted for it not to be debated in the HoE, and now says it's an awful deal within which the small print commits the UK to finance certain loans to EU countries. He apparently is livid. Eh?

Sabre rattling Mike. ERG warning shot across Boris's bows.

They know he will do anything, almost, to get some sort of "deal" so he can look the hero come 23.55 on New Year's Eve.
 

DB9

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Don't know what to make of this story re IDS. He supported the w/a, voted for it not to be debated in the HoE, and now says it's an awful deal within which the small print commits the UK to finance certain loans to EU countries. He apparently is livid. Eh?

This is what I pointed out yesterday, James O'Brien did a piece about this on his show, It's amazing that they were so rushed to get the WA through, They didn't do the most basic of things like read the small print.
 

IndoMike

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Sabre rattling Mike. ERG warning shot across Boris's bows.

They know he will do anything, almost, to get some sort of "deal" so he can look the hero come 23.55 on New Year's Eve.
Yes. It could be. Still seems strange though that IDS is scandalised by a deal that he approved of and that he voted against being debated in the HoE
There's nowt so strange as politics.
 

elginCity

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I have not enabled anything Elgin, I voted to remain.....
Once again, I'm not talking about the Referendum ! Forgive me, as I've only assumed from your posts that you've since voted Tory. Many other decent folk did too - some born again Leavers respecting 'democracy' - others sick of the whole shebang who just wanted to 'Get Brexit Done'.

The 'Oven-ready deal' was a lie, yet people bought it - no deal is looking ever more likely. Just one example of the 'sold a pup' idiom.

This Vote Leave Government signed an international treaty and a political declaration that passed through Parliament, but is now backsliding on that agreement. See IDS, and Barnier's comments. Some democracy that is. It was agreed that UK v EU would compete fairly on a level playing field with an agreed trade arbiter, and Vote Leave are not happy about that now. It's not me who is complaining about the pitch, or the ref.
 
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