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Politics Today

RedPaul

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Agree with all this Arthur although my original LD 'rant' was at their failure to move on since Swinson, not her per se.

The one thing she did do was save us from Corbyn being PM. Had she gone along with it, with him leading some sort of "GNU" then it might have happened. Who knows what chaos would have then ensued and I'm not sure that once in, Corbyn would have stepped aside and called an election 6 months down the line.

Instead we have another form of chaos, a no deal vaccinated form of chaos!
 

arthur

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Lord Kinnock said: “If Labour supports the ‘deal’, all our future justified criticisms will be rebuffed by ‘but you voted for this!’ and, because it will be true, it will be lethal.”

Absolutely
 

RedPaul

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I've an idea. Why not put 'the deal' to the people given that outside of the Gov payroll vote, only about 150 MPs might vote for it. Just check they are sure now they can see the wood for the trees.

Mind you it all looks ever more academic as Macron seems determined to torpedo it, unless it really is a final bit of posturing.
 

tavyred

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Lord Kinnock said: “If Labour supports the ‘deal’, all our future justified criticisms will be rebuffed by ‘but you voted for this!’ and, because it will be true, it will be lethal.”

Absolutely
Like I suggested a few pages back, Labour’s future will mirror the Tories past 30 years, but it will be for the opposite reasons of course. Just as the Tories periodically tore themselves apart over Europe, Labour seem destined to have a significant rump of its membership that will yearn for a return to the EU fold, and as we are already seeing with the debate on Labour’s stance on ‘the deal’ it’s causing divisions.
IMO it’s a terrible look electorally to constantly seek to distance Labour from the country’s choice to leave the EU and was a significant factor in Labour’s shellacking in the last GE. Starmer’s alleged position is the right one, if Brexit is a complete disaster (it won’t be IMO) then as you quite rightly suggest people will know precisely who is to blame and it won’t be the Labour Party. Voting for the deal as the opposition will soon be forgotten in the undoubted recriminations that will follow. Labour will not regain the red wall with Lord Kinnock’s policy of “I told you so, you mugs” I’m afraid.
 

tavyred

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I've an idea. Why not put 'the deal' to the people given that outside of the Gov payroll vote, only about 150 MPs might vote for it. Just check they are sure now they can see the wood for the trees.

Mind you it all looks ever more academic as Macron seems determined to torpedo it, unless it really is a final bit of posturing.
No more referenda required RP, the current Government has all the democratic legitimacy it needs.

Apparently the Macron last minute interjection was just the 10 years of unfettered EU access to U.K. waters.
 

RedPaul

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No more referenda required RP, the current Government has all the democratic legitimacy it needs.

Apparently the Macron last minute interjection was just the 10 years of unfettered EU access to U.K. waters.
I was being tongue in cheek (as no doubt you guessed) but until we see 'the deal', we don't know what legitimacy it has
I think claiming there is democratic legitimacy for "no deal" is a stretch.

Macron's 10 years was to enable him to sign up to the rest of it. When he doesn't get his 10 years, then what?
 

DB9

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No more referenda required RP, the current Government has all the democratic legitimacy it needs.

Apparently the Macron last minute interjection was just the 10 years of unfettered EU access to U.K. waters.
I'm sure last week or so that Stuffy said the EU had "Caved in" on the fishing waters thing?
 

tavyred

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I was being tongue in cheek (as no doubt you guessed) but until we see 'the deal', we don't know what legitimacy it has
I think claiming there is democratic legitimacy for "no deal" is a stretch.

Macron's 10 years was to enable him to sign up to the rest of it. When he doesn't get his 10 years, then what?

This particular Government has the democratic legitimacy it requires because they were tasked at the last GE to take the country through the next five years. I’ve no idea RP how you voted in the referendum but it’s mainly only remain voters I’ve noticed who worry about the differences between deals and no deals. Labour’s manifesto promise to give the country a vote on ‘the deal’ was roundly defeated 12 months ago if I recall correctly.
This government will be judged in 2024 and if the electorate feels that they are responsible for a no deal disaster then they’ll be out on their ear, that said the electorate might feel that the EU had a bigger say in any no deal scenario and decide to give the Government a squeeze. Too early too say.
 

DB9

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This particular Government has the democratic legitimacy it requires because they were tasked at the last GE to take the country through the next five years. I’ve no idea RP how you voted in the referendum but it’s mainly only remain voters I’ve noticed who worry about the differences between deals and no deals. Labour’s manifesto promise to give the country a vote on ‘the deal’ was roundly defeated 12 months ago if I recall correctly.
This government will be judged in 2024 and if the electorate feels that they are responsible for a no deal disaster then they’ll be out on their ear, that said the electorate might feel that the EU had a bigger say in any no deal scenario and decide to give the Government a squeeze. Too early too say.
I'm sure there will be plenty of people ready and waiting to blame the EU, My view is there are two sides to any negotiations and both sides have to take responsibility if they fail. Saying that I think there will be a deal, Lauded by both sides but in reality no one will get what they really want, The EU will deal with it but the ERG and that side might be very disappointed and give Johnson rough time over it.
 

RedPaul

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This particular Government has the democratic legitimacy it requires because they were tasked at the last GE to take the country through the next five years. I’ve no idea RP how you voted in the referendum but it’s mainly only remain voters I’ve noticed who worry about the differences between deals and no deals. Labour’s manifesto promise to give the country a vote on ‘the deal’ was roundly defeated 12 months ago if I recall correctly.
This government will be judged in 2024 and if the electorate feels that they are responsible for a no deal disaster then they’ll be out on their ear, that said the electorate might feel that the EU had a bigger say in any no deal scenario and decide to give the Government a squeeze. Too early too say.
Conservative manifesto 2019

"We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union – and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020. In parallel, we will legislate to ensure high standards of workers’ rights, environmental protection and consumer rights."

No mention of 'no deal' or 'borders in the Irish Sea'

I voted remain. Like Corbyn I was 7, 7.5/10 :) There was (and still is) a lot wrong with the EU but I felt better out than in, and I wasn't convinced the sheer upheaval would be worth it. The analogy of trying to separate eggs from cakes struck home!
 
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