Politics Today

IndoMike

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Olds, when your desperate and trying to play down the quite potentially catastrophic effects of Brexit being denied as some are on here are, you by necessity have to start wobbling on about the tired Remoaner tropes like advisory referendums and 37% of the electorate etc.
It’s speaks volumes as to the paucity of their argument.
If you're going to come out with your personal tropes and just reject my argument without any reasoning I shan't bother to respond. It's difficult to debate with someone who has nothing to say.
 
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IndoMike

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Oldsmobile-88

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In RaWZ we trust....Amen.
Referendums by their nature are advisory and non- binding : to be ratified by the relevant parliament. The problem is our parliament couldn't agree to ratify it.
In addition, Cameron initially offered a referendum on the basis of his new negotiations /deal with the EU prior to the referendum, but no such deal appeared. Therefore the referendum was offered on a false pretence.
Cameron did go around the EU for a deal but got little in return to offer Parliament & the electorate.
A small concession may have helped in the vote & countered some of the nonsense that was being spouted at the time.
 

tavyred

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If you're going to come out with your personal tropes and just reject my argument without any reasoning I shan't bother to respond.
You don’t have an argument, you’re trying to apply a threshold to a referendum decision that has never existed. 50%+1 was all that was required. I understand you personally wished there was a higher threshold to change the status quo, but their wasn’t. As regards the status in law of the referendum, you’re right it is only advisory. In that case, take yourself on an intellectual journey and explain to me why a Parliament with a 2/3rds Remain bias hasn’t just cancelled the Brexit vote?
 

IndoMike

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Cameron did go around the EU for a deal but got little in return to offer Parliament & the electorate.
A small concession may have helped in the vote & countered some of the nonsense that was being spouted at the time.
Yes, Oldsmobile. But when he offered the referendum it was on the basis that there would be some new concessions. Since there weren't any concessions he had already set himself up.
I've always said that the referendum should have been clearly announced as advisory. 51% of the electorate had voted to leave, THEN he should have gone back to the EU to lay his cards on the table and nego.
If the negotiations were not successful he should have held a 2nd referendum which he could have said was binding depending on parliamentary approval : the choice being leave (full stop) or Remain .
Cameron was too sloppy in the way the whole process was carried out.
 

DB9

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Regarding the % of people that voted, Whether remain or leave to me is a red herring, Everyone who's registered and able to vote had the chance to vote, If people decided not to vote then that is their fault or choice not to, Polling stations are open between 7am to 10pm, You can also do postal vote. We don't have compulsory voting like other countries do so it makes no difference, If you choose not to vote then how can you bleat on about a result if you don't like it?
 

arthur

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the quite potentially catastrophic effects of Brexit being denied
Again I ask the honest open question because I don't know the answer.
"Why is overturning the result of a Referendum potentially catastrophic in the UK, but not, apparently, in Ireland where they seem to manage to do this without their society falling apart?"

If you don't want to answer this, perhaps others might like to try
 

arthur

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In that case, take yourself on an intellectual journey and explain to me why a Parliament with a 2/3rds Remain bias hasn’t just cancelled the Brexit vote?
Because it is bending over backwards to, as you would say, "respect the result of the referendum ". Unfortunately following advice that is fraught with difficulties and complexities is not a easy thing to do. Far easier to have just cancelled it as you suggest they could have done...
This is a bit different from "This Remainer Parliament is frustrating the will of the people"
 

tavyred

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Because it is bending over backwards to, as you would say, "respect the result of the referendum ". Unfortunately following advice that is fraught with difficulties and complexities is not a easy thing to do. Far easier to have just cancelled it as you suggest they could have done...
This is a bit different from "This Remainer Parliament is frustrating the will of the people"
......is the wrong answer.
The reason is simple, MP’s voted to hand over the decision on our EU membership to the people and backed that up subsequently by voting to enact art. 50 which means we leave after two years of negotiations, be they successful or otherwise. To simply ignore those things, MP’s are fully aware that would leave us open to the biggest democratic crisis in yours or my lifetimes. Even the LibDems realise they need a new mandate via a General Election to justify a change in the current democratic imperative, and even then there are concerns about the democratic legitimacy of sidelining a referendum designed wholly to determine our continued EU membership. I think you and others minimise the potential fallout for our democracy if Brexit is denied.
 
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