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Thread: The Ashes

  1. #381
    CREDYGRECIAN's Avatar
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    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    I'd argue the opposite with both. Hales was coming good as a Test batsman and it was only his refusal to tour Bangladesh that lost him his place.

    Buttler's technique with the red ball is *awful*, it's perfectly suited to the comparatively low risk white ball game.
    Absolute rubbish - red ball or white ball your technique doesn't change - mindset yes technique no

  2. #382
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by CREDYGRECIAN View Post
    Absolute rubbish - red ball or white ball your technique doesn't change - mindset yes technique no
    Read again what I wrote - I didn't say technique changed, but there are variances between red ball Cricket and white ball Cricket that mean things you can get away with in white ball stuff you just can't with the red ball.

    Buttler in ODIs is magnificent, as good a closer as Michael Bevan in his prime. However, his First Class average is just 31 (compared with 44 in List A matches - most batsmen would have pretty much the opposite sort of average, e.g. KP averaged 50 in FC and 41 in List A). The white ball and the field restrictions in ODIs ensure a far wider margin for error if you're technically deficient but have a good eye.

    Eoin Morgan similarly averages more in List A than First Class, and captains England in ODIs but can't get in the Middlesex side in Championship matches, which says an awful lot.

  3. #383
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    Re: The Ashes

    It doesn't say anything - if your a good bat your a good bat and Josh Butler is a gun batter - your best players given time and chances adapt, something Butler hasn't been given.

    Him coming in at 7 and keeping wicket would be dynamite for England - Marcus Trescothick and Michael Vaughan had average first class records but both had top international records.

    Imagine Bairstow , Stokes , Butler as a 5-6-7 that's as good as it gets for a middle order - he's also a better keeper than Bairstow & certainly a far better player than Foakes.

  4. #384
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: The Ashes

    That'd be the Ben Foakes whose FC batting average is 10 higher than that of Buttler, and has twice as many hundreds despite having played fewer FC matches?

  5. #385

    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    I'd argue the opposite with both. Hales was coming good as a Test batsman and it was only his refusal to tour Bangladesh that lost him his place.

    Buttler's technique with the red ball is *awful*, it's perfectly suited to the comparatively low risk white ball game.
    Hales test average is poor, I certainly wouldn't have backed him to get through Starc etc in the test series, he's far too loose, he'd nick off so often against quality new ball bowlers.

    He's not the answer.

    I'd rather we gave Stoneman a run of games, i.e. New Zealand followed by tests in England.

    I'd still drop Vince, move Bairstow up and bring Buttler in.

    Obviously a lot depends on when Stokes is back.
    Last edited by The Proper Chap; 22 January 2018 at 20:58.

  6. #386
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    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    That'd be the Ben Foakes whose FC batting average is 10 higher than that of Buttler, and has twice as many hundreds despite having played fewer FC matches?
    That's right that's the bloke.

    Not as much as half the talent Butler has

  7. #387

    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    I'd argue the opposite with both. Hales was coming good as a Test batsman and it was only his refusal to tour Bangladesh that lost him his place.

    Buttler's technique with the red ball is *awful*, it's perfectly suited to the comparatively low risk white ball game.
    This post has made me chuckle.

    You say Buttler's technique is awful and indicate he shouldn't be in the test side yet you claim Hales should be in the side yet his technique is horrible at times, he's also an opening batsman where technique is generally considered to be far more important than that of a middle / lower order batter.

    Buttler's technique is irrelevant to me, him coming in at 7 or 8 would be ideal imho.
    Last edited by The Proper Chap; 23 January 2018 at 10:12.

  8. #388
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: The Ashes

    I'm not saying Hales hasn't got technical flaws in his game, and actually at the moment I'm not sure I'd pick him, but just saying he's an option. His career average isn't great and his last series against Pakistan saw him get some starts without going on - the big key there to me was that he tried too hard to be a "Test batsman" at the expense of his natural game. Possibly the opposite problem to James Vince, who is clearly a talent but needs to dig in more. I too like Stoneman, incidentally, and think he should continue for the time being at least.

    I accept the Buttler conundrum is clearly a testing one. How can someone so brutal in the OD game not take it to the Test game? I'd again mention Michael Bevan - arguably the greatest "closer" in ODI history (until now?), averaged 54 in ODIs (and was averaging around 60 until tailing off late in his career), bloody hell. He, unlike Buttler, also had pedigree in domestic red ball Cricket, averaging 57. Yet he averaged just 29 in Tests and didn't play again after 1998. And that at a time when arguably ODI batting wasn't so nuanced as it is today.

    I appreciate Buttler wasn't available for much of the domestic season, but he struggled to get in the Lancashire side, making just 4 appearances (and averaging under 20). If he can't even pin down a place with Lancashire, how is he expected to step up to the far superior bowling at Test level?

  9. #389

    Re: The Ashes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post

    I appreciate Buttler wasn't available for much of the domestic season, but he struggled to get in the Lancashire side, making just 4 appearances (and averaging under 20). If he can't even pin down a place with Lancashire, how is he expected to step up to the far superior bowling at Test level?
    All somewhat ironic as he left Somerset for Lancs to get more opportunities, particularly in the four day game !

  10. #390

    Re: The Ashes

    Yet another English collapse, this time at the hands of Simply Red, some great catches as well for the sell out crowd.



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42788659

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