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Thread: The comparative success of all the Academies

  1. #11

    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Should we read this table as indicating an average performance level by our academy or is that unfair?

  2. #12

    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    And Mark Ellis played for Carlisle last year.

  3. #13

    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolms View Post
    Should we read this table as indicating an average performance level by our academy or is that unfair?
    The table appears to be ranked by the current number of players aged 16+ who are in an Academy, which I don't think is particularly useful. There are a number of omissions (see above), which suggests the data is not necessarily reliable. Qualifying by making 'any first team appearances' is also crude - indeed I think Egan only made one substitute appearance for us, for example, yet carries the same weight as Watkins, who was probably our best player. Nevertheless it's interesting stuff.

    I would suggest however, that these are probably our best ever figures. I also think our numbers will improve over the next 3-5 years, if we carry on what we're doing.

  4. #14

    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyo View Post
    The table appears to be ranked by the current number of players aged 16+ who are in an Academy, which I don't think is particularly useful. There are a number of omissions (see above), which suggests the data is not necessarily reliable. Qualifying by making 'any first team appearances' is also crude - indeed I think Egan only made one substitute appearance for us, for example, yet carries the same weight as Watkins, who was probably our best player. Nevertheless it's interesting stuff.

    I would suggest however, that these are probably our best ever figures. I also think our numbers will improve over the next 3-5 years, if we carry on what we're doing.
    Are there previous years figures to compare it against?

  5. #15

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    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    I think the only ways you can rank an Academy are players graduating to be first team regulars and sell on fees accrued. I would sooner be bottom of that table with 1 player who went for 10m than mid table with 10 who went for 100,000 each.

    My view is that we are producing players in Watkins, Grimes, Sercombe, Friend, Moxey who are better players than a team at our level could sign, but we are getting them turning out for us on far lower wages than they could receive elsewhere. And then we are selling them on for ever-increasing transfer values.

  6. #16
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    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Quote Originally Posted by Terryhall View Post
    Maybe this deserves its own thread after all so as not to derail Ethans thread!
    Indeed. Now created.

  7. #17

    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Quote Originally Posted by hienzeECFC View Post
    I think the only ways you can rank an Academy are players graduating to be first team regulars and sell on fees accrued. I would sooner be bottom of that table with 1 player who went for 10m than mid table with 10 who went for 100,000 each.

    My view is that we are producing players in Watkins, Grimes, Sercombe, Friend, Moxey who are better players than a team at our level could sign, but we are getting them turning out for us on far lower wages than they could receive elsewhere. And then we are selling them on for ever-increasing transfer values.
    Again, I would suggest that's crude. An extreme example would be that of Steven Gerard. He came through the Liverpool Academy and is an Anfield legend and has many England caps. He was never sold for a penny, so would feature as 0 in your method.

    I think a better way would be to calculate the number of appearances at different levels (with Champions League and Internationals being the highest).

  8. #18

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    Re: Ethan Ampadu off to Chelsea

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyo View Post
    Again, I would suggest that's crude. An extreme example would be that of Steven Gerard. He came through the Liverpool Academy and is an Anfield legend and has many England caps. He was never sold for a penny, so would feature as 0 in your method.

    I think a better way would be to calculate the number of appearances at different levels (with Champions League and Internationals being the highest).
    My point was that the success of our academy should be based not on the number of players it produces, but rather the amount of money generated as a result of it, including the appearances made by players we could not otherwise have afforded.

    I would however say that while we very much aspire to the position of selling club, Liverpool do not so Gerrard isn't exactly a direct comparison. Notice that i included Sercombe in my list, although he never generated a penny for us in transfer revenue, he was a player who was probably capable of playing above our level (even when we were in league one he could have been earning more at another club) and was therefore valuable to us as an academy product.

    I would however rank transfer fees as more important than appearances as I doubt that whatever watkins did on the pitch could have been worth 1.8million to us - Gerrard on the other hand probably provided far more than the 30m transfer value than he could have earned Liverpool - but they are essentially playing a different sport at that level.

  9. #19

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    Re: The comparative success of all the Academies

    There are a huge number of variable that tend to make tables like this extremely unreliable as an indicator of true value. The most glaringly obvious one is geography, where the Clubs are located and what their "catchment area" is. Clubs (other than the Premiership) will probably look first to recruit players from an adjacent area rather than looking into the academies of 'isolated' clubs. It would also be interesting to know more about the economic variables and levels of maturation, both physical and mental. It's also worth bearing in mind when thinking about Exeter City that as recently as fourteen years ago the whole operation was under threat - one of the (multiple) reasons why the Trust wanted to take control of the whole scheme.

  10. #20

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    Re: The comparative success of all the Academies

    Quote Originally Posted by David Treharne View Post
    There are a huge number of variable that tend to make tables like this extremely unreliable as an indicator of true value. The most glaringly obvious one is geography, where the Clubs are located and what their "catchment area" is. Clubs (other than the Premiership) will probably look first to recruit players from an adjacent area rather than looking into the academies of 'isolated' clubs. It would also be interesting to know more about the economic variables and levels of maturation, both physical and mental. It's also worth bearing in mind when thinking about Exeter City that as recently as fourteen years ago the whole operation was under threat - one of the (multiple) reasons why the Trust wanted to take control of the whole scheme.
    We are very lucky with our catchment area - must be a nightmare for a club like Bury or Oldham with the Manchester clubs on their doorstep. Similarly for a club on the coast who have little more than an ocean to scout in. We now have to contend with the Category 1 clubs but because we are so far away from any of them we offer a viable option for the majority of youngsters in the west country, particularly sine Yeovil and Torquay closed their academies.

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