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Thread: General Election - 8thJune

  1. #2561

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Jason I completely accept both of the points you make but I think that it is your side of the argument that is disingenuous.

    We as a nation had an extremely unpleasant debate about the EU which was supplemented by the sometimes vicious campaigning of the right-wing media and Farage. While nobody it seems wants to admit they voted to leave the EU because of immigration, the scare stories about immigrants/asylum seekers never the less appeared daily and quite clearly painted an anti-foreigner depiction. I think what is disingenuous is to pretend that we can, as a nation, have behaved the way that we did and yet still claim to be providing a really welcoming place for European/foreign people. We had already legislated to, in effect, put an end to European's pitching up in large numbers without a job by withholding the benefits system to them (3 months resident before you can claim JSA and then can only claim for a max of 6 months I think?). In my opinion it is just another example of us wanting our cake and eating it. The problem that I do entirely accept is that Cameron gobbed off about how he was going to get us some brilliant deal that was never achievable and set the tone for us somehow being bullied by the EU.

    So yes I completely accept the distinction between Europe and the EU but think it is delusional to think that Europeans living here, or those that paid attention to the debate abroad, would have felt such a distinction. Indeed the reaction on the continent, of total bewilderment, would suggest that is the case. Just because they are distinct does not mean the consequence of the decision, and the impact of the debate, means such a distinction exists in "hearts and minds".

    The EU is a long way from perfect but as I have said, a united Europe will become increasingly essential against the power and wealth of China and the Gulf States in years to come. People will always obsess over independence no matter how big or small an entity is but we are much stronger together (ha!) in my opinion.

  2. #2562
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    I think contrary to your point about immigration, it played very heavily (and publicly) in the minds of people wishing to leave the EU - probably alongside only this notion of "taking back control" as uppermost in the reasons for wishing to leave the EU. This "taking back control" applied primarily to our laws and our borders. Where the immigration debate was more nuanced amongst Brexiteers was the majority view of "controlled" immigration (along the lines I suggested above) and the minority radical view around "kick 'em out, lock the door" which nobody in their right mind *really* wants to see, surely.

    My feeling around the "end game" is that while there may be short term pain, in 10 years' time we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. However, the key is how deep that pain is in the meantime.

  3. #2563

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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittners a Legend View Post
    I am in the same position as you Hermann. As far as I am concerned it still comes back to the same position that people are somehow suspicious of foreigners/Europeans/immigration but not apparently our own elites or able to apply such a rationale to the political consequences of this decision - eg pushing ourselves towards far less democratic and pleasant regimes.

    As I said in my previous post it comes back to having an honest discussion about Brexit. Loads of people claim we can strike all these trade deals to make us wealthier without any knowledge or understanding and in defiance of what experts (and they are experts) say. If people think they are going to be wealthier outside the EU because of our so-called net contributions they are likely to be wrong in most cases. We should at least be honest and admit that to gain control of our borders and complete ability to make our own laws we are sacrificing wealth to achieve it.

    We seem to live in a nation of privileged, spoilt, perhaps stupid and delusional people that want everything. We think everything is underfunded but nobody wants to pay for it. We desperately need skilled works and general labourers because there are many people in this country that don't want to work and yet we don't want to let in the people eager to do this from other nations. Just laughably depressing. Utopia doesn't exist yet people genuinely seem to think it achievable, meanwhile the reality is that for most of the poorest in this country things will not improve and those like Rees-Mogg and Johnson campaigning for Brexit do so for outdated ideological reasons for out of pure self-service and not because of some desire to improve things for your average Joe.

    [B[/B]I consider myself European as much as British and expect that many of my values align more closely to many Europeans than to British people. That is not said in some dramatic way but because, certainly for me and people that I know of my age, the divide that right-wing Tories and left-wing Socialists want to create between "us" and Europe does not exist. I do not care less for somebody, or have less interest in somebody, because they are French, or German, or Polish. I do not think that "Brits" as a whole are somehow better or need to be separate from Europeans. I do not think Europeans create laws to negatively effect British people nor are they stealing all our money and going to leave us impoverished. I do not think a European army is about to create World War Three or somehow oppress the peoples of Europe. I am simply not suspicious of European people and had hoped hundreds of years of European History would teach us that we are much better together than apart.
    Add me to the list.

  4. #2564

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    I think contrary to your point about immigration, it played very heavily (and publicly) in the minds of people wishing to leave the EU - probably alongside only this notion of "taking back control" as uppermost in the reasons for wishing to leave the EU. This "taking back control" applied primarily to our laws and our borders. Where the immigration debate was more nuanced amongst Brexiteers was the majority view of "controlled" immigration (along the lines I suggested above) and the minority radical view around "kick 'em out, lock the door" which nobody in their right mind *really* wants to see, surely.

    My feeling around the "end game" is that while there may be short term pain, in 10 years' time we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. However, the key is how deep that pain is in the meantime.
    Sorry Jason I think there may have been some confusion, or I have misunderstood. I do think that immigration was the key thing that motivated people to vote to leave, I just don't think many of those people want to admit it now hence all this nonsense about it being an economic, or political decision. That's what my point in my post yesterday about having an honest debate was about.

    Agree that it might not be so doomsday longer term (and that often things are never as bad as we all think) in an economic sense but I think there is a lot of short term pain coming and just as significantly I think the cultural and social damage will be long-lasting. Equally it remains to be seen quite what the damage will be to cross-border research collaboration for universities. Swiss academics find it notoriously difficult to navigate the EU and, as with most things, while the Govt has spoken about protecting investment into Horizon2020 nobody has really figured out the answers to the problems this will cause universities at research level (and in attracting the best students).

  5. #2565

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittners a Legend View Post
    Sorry Jason I think there may have been some confusion, or I have misunderstood. I do think that immigration was the key thing that motivated people to vote to leave, I just don't think many of those people want to admit it now hence all this nonsense about it being an economic, or political decision. That's what my point in my post yesterday about having an honest debate was about.

    Agree that it might not be so doomsday longer term (and that often things are never as bad as we all think) in an economic sense but I think there is a lot of short term pain coming and just as significantly I think the cultural and social damage will be long-lasting. Equally it remains to be seen quite what the damage will be to cross-border research collaboration for universities. Swiss academics find it notoriously difficult to navigate the EU and, as with most things, while the Govt has spoken about protecting investment into Horizon2020 nobody has really figured out the answers to the problems this will cause universities at research level (and in attracting the best students).
    I work in research and it is definitely a concern. Whereas before we paid into Horizon 2020 much less than we were awarded, I suspect we will end up paying more if we are to still have access, mainly to maintain cross-border collaboration. Where that money comes from is the question. Probably from the current UK research budgets - particularly those of arts, humanities and social sciences. The UK already lags well behind the EU average for government spending on research as a % of GDP (even if you include charitable funding that doesn't come from the government). We're likely to see a further widening of the gap between the Russell Group and the rest of the UK universities, with plenty of the best and brightest being poached. EU postdocs are already leaving in droves.

  6. #2566
    exeweb.com admin Hants_red's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    So, 100 years ago today men got the vote. Women also got the vote so long as they were over the age of 30 and were householders, the wives of householders, occupiers of property with an annual rent of £5, and graduates of British universities. Though this did extend voting rights to 8.4 million women. It was deemed such a success that in 1928 voting rights for women were extended further!

  7. #2567
    Grecian2K's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Unless of course you had the misfortune to have been born the "wrong side of the tracks" in Norn Oireland, Hants...in which case you had to wait until 1972 for full franchise.

    The irony of course is that it is now that sorry bunch of sash-wearing "orange persons" that is propping up the current apology of a government that is supposed to represent the WHOLE OF THE UK.

  8. #2568

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Hants_red View Post
    So, 100 years ago today men got the vote. Women also got the vote so long as they were over the age of 30 and were householders, the wives of householders, occupiers of property with an annual rent of £5, and graduates of British universities. Though this did extend voting rights to 8.4 million women. It was deemed such a success that in 1928 voting rights for women were extended further!
    With someone having to check those credentials for 8 million people, you'd think it would have been easier just to give everyone the vote.

  9. #2569

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsmobile-88 View Post
    I canít recall where it was last year,but Mogg was shouted at & abused by a rent a mob.Rather than scuttle into a meeting,he went over to them & asked what they wanted to talk to him about,very little it seemed(just the usual shouting)
    He tried to explain his point to them & waited for their reply.They had little to say,just having a pop at him because he was on the other end of the political spectrum..Sad really that itís coming to this,soon a lot of debate will be shut down by this sort of nonsense.Politicans will be confined to sterile TV debates(Yawn)
    Read an interesting mailout about this issue today. Seems a storm over nothing to me. Universities will always be left-wing and students will always protest at the drop of a hat. It doesn't seem to make much difference to the political spectrum and the conservatives are only worried about it because the normally blasť students are currently voting for Corbyn. The fact that a student mob can make Rees-Mogg look like a reasonable human being rather than an artist's caricature of a conservative is a PR win for him. The best a conservative on campus can realistically hope for is apathy - when I was at Durham towards the end of the Blair years, Boris Johnson spoke and most people chose to go to the "Back to School" night at the SU instead. And this is Durham, allegedly founded by southern parents because Oxbridge was getting a bit "lefty".

    It is however being conflated with the wider issue of abuse within politics, with Theresa May backing a law to ban intimidation of political types. Not sure how practical that is, since what constitutes intimidation? Also she seems to be ignoring the fact that the main practitioners of political abuse in this country are the right-wing press, which are generally on her side in most things. Maybe she doesn't want to be beholden to them anymore and the law will be aimed at them, in which case I'd applaud it as the best thing she has ever done in her entire career. On the other hand I suspect she just doesn't want the mean liberals shouting naughty things at her.

  10. #2570
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
    Also she seems to be ignoring the fact that the main practitioners of political abuse in this country are the right-wing press, which are generally on her side in most things.
    Are you sure about that? A few snide bits in the Daily Mail don't compare in the slightest to some of the abuse that takes place up and down the country, mainly (but not limited to by any means) by the left. The events at my alma mater on Friday night with Rees-Mogg are the tip of the iceberg, have a look at some of the examples from the election, for example those suffered by the Conservative candidate for Ealing Central and Acton. It's truly horrifying.
    Last edited by Jason H; 07 February 2018 at 10:05. Reason: Central, not North

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