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Thread: General Election - 8thJune

  1. #1501

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair20000 View Post
    If guns were controlled wouldn't the nutters just find a different way ?
    Yes, but if you consider that for all our van/car and knife attacks, we've had fewer deaths from terrorism in the last ten years than this one shooting...

  2. #1502

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    Pretty much what I said.

    The gun used was apparently illegal.
    I heard it was legally bought and illegally modified.

  3. #1503
    Spoonz Red E's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    The constitutional 'right' to bear arms was drafted to allow the states to have armed militia.
    The gun lobby over the years have been successful in corrupting that concept to the point where it's become the 'right' to own fully automatic weapons capable of massive carnage.
    The lobby won't allow even the smallest of steps back from this depressing state of affairs.

  4. #1504
    Alistair20000's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by IndoMike View Post
    Using automatic weapons can create much more havoc than a guy with a knife. Also using a gun is easier to go through with since it's not so confrontational : I mean it's not always direct contact.
    A fair point Indo. My point really was that in a free society it is impossible to eliminate this type of thing. One day the nutters/bad men will find a way to release a deadly virus, dirty bomb or whatever so there is no enduring solution to this sort of thing.

  5. #1505

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair20000 View Post
    A fair point Indo. My point really was that in a free society it is impossible to eliminate this type of thing. One day the nutters/bad men will find a way to release a deadly virus, dirty bomb or whatever so there is no enduring solution to this sort of thing.
    There will always be crazies, but better to make it harder for them. Hence the restrictions on carrying and selling acid announced today. Props to the Tories for once, they've acted correctly on this one.

  6. #1506
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
    Except there have been maybe 10 instances of a "bad guy" with a gun being stopped by a "good guy" with a gun in the last 20 years. Compared to 1516 mass shootings in 1735 days.

    And 75% of guns used in mass shootings are bought legally. Often by people of the terrorist watchlist or known to have a history of violence.

    How many mass shootings have we had since tightening the law following Dunblane? One?

    That's not to go into the suicide argument over gun control, which is another thing entirely.
    On your first point - surely that shows the effectiveness as a deterrent?

    I'm not saying the background checks can't be more effective.

    We simply don't have a gun culture in this country, so comparing the UK vs the USA isn't easy in this regard.

    I don't like guns, I don't think people should be able to own and carry guns, but the issue as I see it is that you can't just undo 200 years of history and tell the "good guys" that they can no longer own guns while the "bad guys" can get hold of one with ease.

  7. #1507
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    On your first point - surely that shows the effectiveness as a deterrent?

    I'm not saying the background checks can't be more effective.

    We simply don't have a gun culture in this country, so comparing the UK vs the USA isn't easy in this regard.

    I don't like guns, I don't think people should be able to own and carry guns, but the issue as I see it is that you can't just undo 200 years of history and tell the "good guys" that they can no longer own guns while the "bad guys" can get hold of one with ease.
    I don't disagree with your last sentence Jason. But surely there has to be a better answer to that issue than "just let everyone have guns and hope for the best"?

    Surely the fact that in an average 10 day period in the US, 9 of them will have a mass shooting, suggests that something with the current approach isn't working?

  8. #1508

    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason H View Post
    On your first point - surely that shows the effectiveness as a deterrent?

    I'm not saying the background checks can't be more effective.

    We simply don't have a gun culture in this country, so comparing the UK vs the USA isn't easy in this regard.

    I don't like guns, I don't think people should be able to own and carry guns, but the issue as I see it is that you can't just undo 200 years of history and tell the "good guys" that they can no longer own guns while the "bad guys" can get hold of one with ease.
    How does that show it's effectiveness as a deterrent? 1516 mass shootings in under 5 years. How many are you expecting there to be without the "deterrent"? None of these mass shooters seem like the sort of people to be deterred...

    And can they get hold of them with ease? We don't know, but surely you would have prevented a bunch of those 1516 mass shootings by making guns harder to obtain.

  9. #1509
    exeweb.com mod Jason H's Avatar
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
    How does that show it's effectiveness as a deterrent? 1516 mass shootings in under 5 years. How many are you expecting there to be without the "deterrent"? None of these mass shooters seem like the sort of people to be deterred...

    And can they get hold of them with ease? We don't know, but surely you would have prevented a bunch of those 1516 mass shootings by making guns harder to obtain.
    I'm talking specifically about your first sentence - gun ownership seen as a deterrent from the "bad guys" shooting the "good guys" in burglaries etc.

    You may reduce the 1516 "mass" shootings by making guns harder to obtain (and of course I'd fully agree the background checks need to be much tougher - but on the flip side this may increase the black market gun economy), but it may well be that this is offset by 1516+ "individual" shootings, usually in someone's home or through carjacking.

    The key is, there is simply no quick fix, and making it harder to obtain guns will penalise the "good guys" while giving the "bad guys" carte blanche. They WILL still have guns, it would be somewhat nave to think otherwise.

  10. #1510
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    Re: General Election - 8thJune

    As an aside, so far this year 2,877 people have been shot in Chicago alone, 527 killed. This past weekend there were 4 gun killings and 28 injured.

    Figures this year are slightly down on last year. A very sick society.

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