Politics Today

[Grecian2K]

.......and had our most recent GE returned a Labour or a more left leaning government into power, you and others on here wouldn't give a stuff about our democratic system.

How dare you, yet again, try to put your own false assumptions and prejudices into the mouths of others. Yet again, typical deflection and distraction.

For the record, even as a life-long example of one of your despised "left-leaning Labour types" I have, in fact, always actually favoured the principle of Proportional Representation.
For the first half of my voting life I did have the misfortune of residing in Devon constituencies where they could (and sometimes did) pin a blue rosette on a semi-trained simian and still romped home with a five-figure majority. But, even though, I knew my vote would "never count" I still always valued and exercised the hard-won right of franchise for all.
And, even now, despite living in the still (relatively) safe little red dot that is Devon's capital I still haven't changed my view of the greater fairness of Prop R.

Finally, before you throw 1997 back at me, despite my joy that almost so decades of cruel Tory hegemony was finally over I did feel equal disquiet then too at the volume of parliamentary seats delivered versus the actual shares of the vote.

 

[tavyred]

Spare me the self righteous indignation G2K, it was only a few days ago you were calling me a liar and the lack of a personal apology is noted.
The only reason we are even talking about PR is because yours and others world view is not shared by the majority of the electorate and this causes you frustration as a result.
My point that if Labour were currently sporting an 80 seat majority instead of the Tories you and others wouldn't give a flying fig, still applies.

 

[IndoMike]

.......and had our most recent GE returned a Labour or a more left leaning government into power, you and others on here wouldn't give a stuff about our democratic system.

Maybe. But you would have probably commented on it, with some justification

 

[tavyred]

Maybe. But you would have probably commented on it, with some justification

I guess the only way to test that theory is to ask me if I dripped about electoral system in 2017 when I voted Labour and they lost.

 

[IndoMike]

Spare me the self righteous indignation G2K, it was only a few days ago you were calling me a liar and the lack of a personal apology is noted.
The only reason we are even talking about PR is because yours and others world view is not shared by the majority of the electorate and this causes you frustration as a result.
My point that if Labour were currently sporting an 80 seat majority instead of the Tories you and others wouldn't give a flying fig, still applies.

But you do agree that PR better represents the voice of the people, right?

 

[IndoMike]

I guess the only way to test that theory is to ask me if I dripped about electoral system in 2017 when I voted Labour and they lost.

Fair point. Would they have won or gained many more seats with PR. Probably not, right?

 

[tavyred]

But you do agree that PR better represents the voice of the people, right?

If you are saying for example that under PR a party getting 25% of the vote gets them 25% of the seats is more representative of public opinion, then yes.

 

[tavyred]

Fair point. Would they have won or gained many more seats with PR. Probably not, right?

Don't know TBH.

 

[Grecian2K]

Spare me the self righteous indignation G2K, it was only a few days ago you were calling me a liar and the lack of a personal apology is noted.
The only reason we are even talking about PR is because yours and others world view is not shared by the majority of the electorate and this causes you frustration as a result.
My point that if Labour were currently sporting an 80 seat majority instead of the Tories you and others wouldn't give a flying fig, still applies.

Just in reply to your three points (in order of importance)

3) Did I not JUST say that, even as a Labour supporter, I had extreme disquiet at the disproportionate majority Blair got in 1997?
2) Did I not JUST say that, even as a Labour supporter, I have always considered PR as a more representative (if not a somewhat less convenient) system?
1) When it comes to "self righteous indignation" I do think it rather rich coming from someone who has perfected the art. I don't really wish to go back over far-too-well-trodden ground but if you care to look back I DID actually apologise for my misquote - even Jason has acknowledged on this thread that I'd had the "decency" to retract. (And, anyway, the "offending" post was never a personal one aimed at you - it was just an observation about the general "right-wing playbook".

So, in return, please spare ME your overweening arrogance of continually putting your own words and interpretations into other peoples mouths. I know your main interest in life must be internet fishing but please, at least save a little of your energies from traducing me and other left minded "liberal types" and, for at least reserve your main "Cobblers" for matchday tomorrow?

 

[Bittners a Legend]

That article raises some interesting points although comes across as rather one-eyed (I don't believe the blurb that he was a Leaver who changed his mind - the tone of the article simply doesn't back this up). The question could have conflated peoples' minds with those *already* here from the EU and vice versa rather than continued free movement of citizens to and from the EU post-Brexit as it wasn't particularly clear. However, the tone of the other question about whether EU and non-EU citizens should be treated differently (which gave a decisive answer away from EU freedom of movement) was pretty clear in its intent.

Possibly another slant is to consider in the minds of those polled "How free is free?" - from what I can see the overwhelming majority are happy with *some* immigration, especially where there are skills gaps (you'd be mad not to think that skills gaps should be filled by any means necessary), while some take the nuanced view of "I want to retire to Spain, so Spanish people should have the option of retiring to the UK", which again I get. The tipping point, however, is where you have people moving countries in order to look for work (rather than to start work) - this "freedom of movement" is probably thought of less favourably.

Personally this is largely where I draw the line - we as a country should be free to recruit to need. And yes, it should be up to Spain as to how many of our Essex gangsters they let in.

For the entirety of human history people have moved to find work. Those that come here to work are net contributors to the economy. I see no problem with this unless you believe the false narrative that British people are losing out on jobs to migrants.

If your issue is with people moving here and claiming out of work benefits before finding a job then I have sympathy with your argument - but that is the failure of successive governments to tackle that issue when they could have done and in the grand scheme of things is a negative that I can tolerate. Regardless it certainly isn't the EU forcing us to pay these people benefits neverendingly.

Ultimately the aggressive attitude this government is taking to immigration will lose you talented people and that is always a bad thing.